THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now on the record. This begins Volume No. 1 in the deposition of Karen Degen, in the matter of In Re Opioid Litigation in the Supreme Court of the State of New York, County of Suffolk. Today is Saturday, January 25, 2020, and the time is 9:08 a.m. This deposition is being taken at 225 River Street, Hoboken, New Jersey, at the request of the New York State Office of the Attorney General. The videographer is Robert Steinkopf and the court reporter is Adrienne Mignano of Magna Legal Services. Will both parties present state your appearances and whom they represent.
Leo O'Toole: Leo O'Toole from the Office of the New York State Attorney General on behalf of plaintiffs.
Carol Hunt: Carol Hunt from the New York State Office of the Attorney General on behalf of plaintiffs.
William Davison: William Davison from Ropes & Gray on behalf of Mallinckrodt LLC and SpecGx LLC and for the witness.
Torryn Taylor: Torryn Taylor from Ropes & Gray on behalf of Mallinckrodt LLC, SpecGx LLC and the witness.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Will the notary please swear in the witness.
Leo O'Toole: Good morning, Mrs. Degen. Am I pronouncing that correctly, Degen?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So my name is Leo O'Toole, as I just said. I I'm an assistant attorney general. I'm here from the Office of the New York State Attorney General. I represent the plaintiff, one of the LEGAL ERVICES plaintiffs in this action, the People of the State of New York in the case that brings us here today. Would you please state your name and your address for the record.
Karen Degen: Sure. My name is Karen Degen and my address is: : *Redacted - Pll !acted - EPI *Redacted -EPI
Leo O'Toole: Have you testified in a deposition before?
Karen Degen: Yes, I have.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And have you testified at trial?
Karen Degen: No, I have not.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So I'd like to go over a few ground rules. I'm not sure how many of these you will be familiar with, but I figure it can't hurt.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: So there are a few things to keep in mind considering that you are giving your testimony in a deposition today. LEGAL ERVICES The first is that Ms. Mignano will be transcribing everything we say.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: So that's important for two reasons. So one would be that we shouldn't interrupt each other. So you can imagine how the transcript will look; it will be quite difficult to read in the event that we're talking over one another. So I would like to ask for you to let me complete my questions and I'll do my very best to let you complete your answers.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: And another important issue with us being in a deposition is that you should answer my questions verbally.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: If you give some kind of a non-verbal response, let's say you shrug your shoulders
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: or you, I don't know, say "uh-uh," Ms. Mignano is not going to be able LEGAL ERVICES to transcribe that accurately.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: And so we're making a record right now. The court reporter, who is Mr. Steinkopf is recording my questions and he is going to be recording your answers.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: So I'm going to be asking you a series of questions. If you don't understand any of my questions, it is important that you let me know. Does that sound fair?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And if you answer, I'll assume you understood the question. Does that sound fair?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. During the course of this deposition, I will be taking breaks. If you need to take a break, just let me know. If there is a question pending, you'll need to answer it, but otherwise I'll try to LEGAL ERVICES accommodate whatever needs you have.
Karen Degen: Okay. Thank you.
Leo O'Toole: Is there any reason sitting here today why you wouldn't be able to give full and truthful testimony?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you understand that your testimony is under oath just as if a judge and jury were in the room?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So what is your understanding as to why you're here today?
Karen Degen: I received I'm not sure what you call it.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: A subpoena
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I think, to appear today.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you understand that we're here today because the State of New York and the counties of New York have brought a lawsuit against Mallinckrodt in what's been referred to as the New York State Opioid Litigation?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Ms. Degen, I'm about to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 1. (Whereupon, Subpoena, was marked as Degen Exhibit 1 for identification, as of this date.) Would you look at this and let me know when you're done, please.
Karen Degen: Read this?
Leo O'Toole: Read this, please.
Karen Degen: Okay. (Reviewing document.) Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: What is this document?
Karen Degen: A subpoena for me to appear here today.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And when did you receive it?
Karen Degen: I don't remember the exact date.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember approximately when you received the subpoena?
Karen Degen: Is it the original one that came with a really big packet, like 200 pages?
Leo O'Toole: That's right.
Karen Degen: That was about a month ago, I believe.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And when did you retain counsel? I see your counsel is sitting next to you.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: When did you retain them?
Karen Degen: Maybe about a month ago.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who is paying for your counsel today?
Karen Degen: Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: Mallinckrodt is. Okay. Ms. Degen, I'm about to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 2. (Whereupon, Notice of Deposition, was marked as Degen Exhibit 2 for identification, as of this date.) And, again, if you could read that and let me know when you're done.
Karen Degen: (Reviewing document.) Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so your counsel hadn't shown it to you?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. You can set that aside.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Without telling me about any of the substance of what you talked about with your lawyers, what did you do to prepare for today's deposition?
Karen Degen: I spent two days with my lawyers, with the lawyers.
Leo O'Toole: So on the first on those two days, LEGAL ERVICES whom did you meet with?
Karen Degen: Bill and Kassie.
Leo O'Toole: Kassie. Who is Kassie?
Karen Degen: A lawyer at the firm, the same firm.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know her last name?
Karen Degen: I don't remember her last name.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And on that first day with Bill and Kassie, how long did you how long did you spend?
Karen Degen: It was a day. I don't remember the exact hours.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would you say more or less than five hours?
Karen Degen: I think more.
Leo O'Toole: More than five hours. Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: More or less than eight hours?
Karen Degen: I think it is less than eight hours.
Leo O'Toole: Less than eight hours. Okay. And on the second occasion that LEGAL ERVICES you prepared, whom did you meet with?
Karen Degen: I met with Bill and I met with Torryn.
Leo O'Toole: You met with Bill and Torryn; when was that?
Karen Degen: Yesterday.
Leo O'Toole: That was yesterday. And going back to the first occasion, when was the first occasion?
Karen Degen: I don't remember
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: when it was.
Leo O'Toole: Approximately?
Karen Degen: Maybe two weeks ago.
Leo O'Toole: Two weeks ago. Okay.
Karen Degen: I'm not sure.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So moving forward to the occasion where you met with Ms. Taylor and Mr. Davison yesterday, how long did you meet yesterday?
Karen Degen: I think we met at 10.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And I'm not sure what time we ended.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: So probably a day again.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yeah.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Fair. So fair to say somewhere between five and eight hours?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And during those meetings, did your counsel show you documents?
Karen Degen: Yes, they did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did any of those documents refresh your recollection?
Karen Degen: Yes, they did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So we'll be going through some documents today; they may be the same documents. So I'll ask you that if you see any documents that refresh your recollection, that you just let me know as we're going through those.
Karen Degen: I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Leo O'Toole: So if any of the documents that I am showing you today are documents that refresh your recollection
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: please let me know.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So I I'd like to start with some of your background. Can you tell me what's your educational background?
Karen Degen: I went to Penn State University.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did you graduate from Penn State?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what was your degree?
Karen Degen: In business administration.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And was that a bachelor's degree?
Karen Degen: A bachelor's degree, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Let me see. Do you have any kind of science background?
Karen Degen: No. My degree was in business.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So no medical training?
Karen Degen: No medical training.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you have any certifications or licenses?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And when did you graduate from Penn State?
Karen Degen: 1980.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who is your current employer?
Karen Degen: The Neigel Center.
Leo O'Toole: The Neigel Center; what is the Neigel Center?
Karen Degen: It is an oculoplastic doctor's office.
Leo O'Toole: And where is that located?
Karen Degen: Florham Park, New Jersey.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what do you do in your work at the Neigel Center?
Karen Degen: I'm front desk. Front desk. Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what are your responsibilities as someone at the front desk at the Neigel Center?
Karen Degen: Answer the phones.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Scan documents.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And I I'm in charge of the various programs
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: at the office.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And the Neigel Center, it is a would it be fair to say it is a doctor's office? Is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes, it is.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And in your current occupation, do you you don't sell pharmaceuticals; is that right?
Karen Degen: That's correct.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And you you're not detailing other doctors?
Karen Degen: That's correct.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So to shift slightly to your career at Mallinckrodt, when did you start working for Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: I don't remember the dates.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: About five years ago.
Leo O'Toole: About five years?
Karen Degen: I think it was about five years ago.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what did you do before you started working at Mallinckrodt?
William Davison: Objection. You can answer.
Karen Degen: I believe I worked at Takeda, Takeda Pharmaceuticals.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: That was the job previous to Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And were you selling or detailing pharmaceuticals at Takeda?
Karen Degen: I was managing representatives.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Sales representatives.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So you were working at Takeda more than five years ago, and then you started working at Mallinckrodt at some point. How did you start working at Mallinckrodt? How were you hired?
Karen Degen: Through a recruiter.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And while you were at Mallinckrodt, what was your title?
Karen Degen: I think it was district sales manager.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so you managed people; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Whom did you manage?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: A sales team of 10 to 12 people.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What were their titles?
Karen Degen: I don't remember what the exact title of sales reps were
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: at Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember any of the names of people whom you managed at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: I remember some of the names, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What were some of those names?
Karen Degen: I remember first names of some of them.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Stephanie, Gregg. I can't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Nothing else comes to mind?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember who your boss was?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Who was that?
Karen Degen: Jay Rago.
Leo O'Toole: Jay Rago. Okay. And what was his title?
Karen Degen: I believe it was regional sales manager.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So can you tell me what your duties were? I believe you said you were a district sales manager; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What were your responsibilities at Mallinckrodt as a district sales manager?
Karen Degen: Sure, so managing the sales representatives and I had a budget and just ensuring that goals were met.
Leo O'Toole: What kinds of goals?
Karen Degen: Goals in terms of call goals and sales goals.
Leo O'Toole: Call goals?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Is that what you said?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So what are call goals?
Karen Degen: So just ensuring that sales reps are calling on physicians
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: every day.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What do you mean by "calling on physicians"?
Karen Degen: Educating the physicians.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Okay, and this education, educating physicians; what forms did it take? What forms did these calls take?
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Leo O'Toole: Would it help if I rephrase the question?
Karen Degen: Sure.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Please.
Leo O'Toole: Would these calls take place a as face-to-face interactions?
Karen Degen: Yes, they did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so the people whom you managed would visit doctors' offices; is that fair to say?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And you said there were call goals associated with this; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So can you give me an example of a call goal?
Karen Degen: I don't remember how many calls a day. It's typical in pharmaceuticals that
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: a representative has call LEGAL ERVICES goals
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: to ensure that they are working.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And I don't remember what the call goals were at
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: at Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: But it is basically a certain number of visits over the course of a week or a day or something like that; is that fair to say?
Karen Degen: Yes. Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And then how about the sales goals that you reference; what are those sales goals?
Karen Degen: It is just again, it is typical in pharmaceuticals where the goal was to achieve a certain criteria, and it is different at every company, and I don't remember the specifics at Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So can you give me an example of what some criteria could be?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: At where?
Leo O'Toole: At Mallinckrodt.
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation.
Leo O'Toole: Can you give me an example of criteria during your time at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Sure. I believe it was a number of doctors who were prescribing, and I believe there also was a dollar goal. But, again, I'm not sure.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. The what would the dollar goal be?
Karen Degen: I don't know.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: So I guess my question isn't what the number would be; it is more when you say "dollar goal"
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you ever visit doctors with your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And were these called field rides?
Karen Degen: Yes, they were.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What other kinds of interactions would you have with your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: Sometimes they would call.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So you would speak to them over the phone?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would you communicate with them by e-mail?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what percentage of your communication with your sales reps would you say happened over e-mail?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was it expected that you would be regularly checking your e-mail?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And responding to e-mails as well?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. You said that you believe you started at Mallinckrodt around five years ago; that's right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And at that time, were your sales representatives using technology like iPads?
Karen Degen: I know we used iPads; I don't remember if it was when I first started.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Where was your district? You said you were a district sales manager. Where was your district during your time at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: I had representatives in New LEGAL ERVICES Jersey.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And I had representatives in New York.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did your districts ever change did your district ever change?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember what drugs your sales reps detailed for Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Yes. We detailed Exalgo.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Pennsaid.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Anything else?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you win any kind of awards
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: during your time? What awards did you win? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: President's Club.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what years did you win that?
Karen Degen: I don't remember the year.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember any kind of trips that you won?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Was it a contest? Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What was that?
Karen Degen: That was the President's Club trip.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you remember any other trips?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. You testified earlier that you worked for Takeda as a pharmaceutical sales rep; is that right?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you work for any other pharmaceutical companies?
Karen Degen: I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What companies?
Karen Degen: I worked for Ross Labs. I worked for a number of companies that merged into Pfizer. Do you want me to tell you each of the companies before they were Pfizer?
Leo O'Toole: No, I don't think so.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Could you tell me what drugs you detailed while you were working at Pfizer or at these companies that eventually merged into Pfizer?
Karen Degen: There were a lot of there were a lot of drugs
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: in my career. I remember some of them.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Do you want me to tell you
Leo O'Toole: Yeah; yeah.
Karen Degen: the ones I remember?
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
Karen Degen: Okay. I sold infant formula, antibiotics. Can I give you categories instead of the names, or do you want the names?
Leo O'Toole: You categories is fine.
Karen Degen: Okay. So I sold antibiotics.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Also sleeping pills, cholesterol medication and diabetes medication, cardiovascular medication and pain medication.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And after you left Mallinckrodt, did you work for any pharmaceutical companies as a sales rep?
Karen Degen: Never not a sales rep.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Sales manager.
Leo O'Toole: Sales manager?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you work for you worked for pharmaceutical companies after Mallinckrodt as a sales manager; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What companies?
Karen Degen: Galderma.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And you were managing sales reps at Galderma?
Karen Degen: Yes, I was.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What drugs were they detailing?
Karen Degen: We sold over-the-counter hand creams.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And we also sold hair-loss products.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And I also worked for another company after Galderma.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what company was that? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: It was called Sentinel.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what was your role there?
Karen Degen: I was a sales manager.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And were you managing sales representatives?
Karen Degen: Yes, I was.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what were they detailing?
Karen Degen: Pain medication.
Leo O'Toole: What kinds of pain medication?
Karen Degen: Do you want the name of
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
Karen Degen: Okay. Levorphanol and Levorphanol and Abstral.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And are either Levorphanol or Abstral opioids?
Karen Degen: Yes, they are.
Leo O'Toole: Are they both opioids?
Karen Degen: Yes, they are.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Ms. Degen, I'm about to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 3. (Whereupon, Linkedln Profile, was marked as Degen Exhibit 3 for identification, as of this date.) Again, if you wouldn't mind reading this, and just let me know when you're done.
Karen Degen: Sure. (Reviewing document.)
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yeah. I recognize it being in Linkedln.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so what is this document?
Karen Degen: This is content from Linkedln.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Whose Linkedln profile is it?
Karen Degen: This is my
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: my Linkedln profile.
Leo O'Toole: And do you have any reason to think this is inaccurate?
Karen Degen: I didn't read it thoroughly.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: If you want me to take time to read every aspect of it?
Leo O'Toole: I'd like to direct your attention to the third page.
Karen Degen: Okay. One that says "senior" -
Leo O'Toole: That's correct.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: What does it say there?
Karen Degen: "Senior hospital district sales manager."
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals; does it
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: It also says that, right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And reading this page of the document
Karen Degen: Sure.
Leo O'Toole: does that refresh your recollection as to the time during which you LEGAL ERVICES worked for Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: It refreshes my recollection about the dates.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what are those dates?
Karen Degen: October 13th to July 2015.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you mean October 2013 to July 2015?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Ms. Degen, the first bullet says, "Won President's Club Award for 2013, 2014 sales years. Number one district sales manager in the country." Did I read that correctly?
William Davison: Objection. Mischaracterizes the document.
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: I think it says 2013 to 2014, or we should just make it clear that it is 2013-2014.
Leo O'Toole: 2013 to 2014.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So you mentioned earlier that you won this President's Club Award.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What are the criteria for the award?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Is it based on sales goals?
Karen Degen: I don't
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Is it based on sales numbers?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Did any of your the sales representatives who reported to you win the President's Club Award?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Who?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. But you remember that someone won it; you just can't remember who? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: I can't remember who.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember where their district was?
Karen Degen: What?
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Where their territory was, excuse me.
Karen Degen: Oh, okay. In terms of who won?
Leo O'Toole: Yeah.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. It also says here, "Number one district sales manager in the country."
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What does that mean?
Karen Degen: I in terms of rankings, I was ranked number one.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And how were the rankings done?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So if an employer, a future employer were to read this and they were to say, I see number one district sales manager in the country on your Linkedln, what does that mean? What would you tell them?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: That that is my rank, that I was ranked number one.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And if they were to ask you, What does that mean?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I would say it was probably in sales, but I don't remember the exact criteria.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. I'd like to direct your attention to the very bottom bullet. It says, "Due to district being number one since launch of Xartemis, worked extensively with Clarion Consulting to develop selling strategies for nation."
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Did I read that correctly? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What were the selling strategies that you developed for the nation?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you remember working with Clarion Consulting?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember any of the ideas that you discussed with Clarion Consulting?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What were those ideas?
Karen Degen: An idea I had was in the beginning we were calling on pain specialists for Xartemis, and my thought was that I wanted my team to call on surgeons because that was a very appropriate drug for Xartemis because it was acute pain. So I wanted to my reps to start calling more we were calling on both, but I wanted them to call more on surgeons.
Leo O'Toole: Surgeons as opposed to what kind LEGAL ERVICES of doctors?
Karen Degen: Pain specialists.
Leo O'Toole: Pain specialists. Okay. And when you said "we" in your earlier response: An idea I had was in the beginning we were calling on pain specialists, who is the "we" that you were referring to there?
Karen Degen: The company.
Leo O'Toole: The company?
Karen Degen: Yeah.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Specifically which people in the company?
Karen Degen: The sales force.
Leo O'Toole: Sales force. Okay. And would you include yourself in the sales force?
Karen Degen: Yes. I was managing the sales team.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And, again, it says here the district being number one since launch of LEGAL ERVICES Xartemis. How would you how do you determine that your district is number one?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. All right. I think we can put that document to the side. (Discussion held off the record.)
Carol Hunt: Can we go off the record just for one minute?
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record. The time is 9:39 a.m. (Thereupon, a recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're now on the record. The time is 9:41 a.m.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm going to hand you a document that's been marked as Exhibit 4. (Whereupon, E-mail chain, Bates stamped MNK-T1 0000621462 through 1463, LEGAL ERVICES was marked as Degen Exhibit 4 for identification, as of this date.) And it bears the Bates stamp MNK-T1 0000621462.
Karen Degen: I read it, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay, great. So I asked you earlier whether you had won any trips apart from the President's Club trip.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: You does this document well, I guess first things first. Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: I see that I wrote it and I but I don't remember it.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does it refresh your well, what is the document?
Karen Degen: It is a document that I won a trip, a getaway trip
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: in June.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And June of what year?
Karen Degen: According to this document, 2015.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what was the trip? What were the what was the contest?
Karen Degen: I don't remember this.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I don't remember this.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that the subject line of the e-mail is 4Q14 Xartemis XR Contest Trip - Hamburg, New Jersey?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And do you see that the e-mail from Amy Kildea begins, "Hello, Xartemis XR Champions"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see that that e-mail was sent to you, Cynthia Oese, Albert Kirschner and Stephanie Rose?
Karen Degen: Ah, yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: And who are those people?
Karen Degen: They are our sales reps. LEGAL ERVICES
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Sales reps that you managed?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Thanks. We can put that document aside. Okay, Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 5. It is a document that's been produced in this litigation. It is it was produced in native format, marked confidential, and the Bates stamp is MNK NC and then it is 00000046. (Whereupon, Excel Spreadsheet, was marked as Degen Exhibit 5 for identification, as of this date.)
William Davison: It looks like this is an Excel. Has this been sorted, or is this the entire Excel?
Leo O'Toole: So this is one it hasn't been sorted, but this is one sheet of the workbook.
William Davison: Okay. Thank you.
Leo O'Toole: Are you done?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recognize the document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is this document?
Karen Degen: It was a roster
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: of the sales force.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see your name anywhere on this document?
Karen Degen: I do.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And where do you see your name?
Karen Degen: Under east region.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And I believe it is also on another page under district.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. At the top of the page, what date do you see?
Karen Degen: 11-11-14. LEGALSERVICES
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And then moving on to the second page, do you see next to your name it says "senior district manager"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see next to that it says "District, New York 10200"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And then below that, there is a list of numbers under the TERR number category heading. Do you see that?
Karen Degen: Yes, I see that.
Leo O'Toole: Are these territories?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Are these territories that you managed?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And the names that appear to the right of that; are those sales representatives that you managed
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: during your time?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And thanks. That will be all from that document. Ms. Degen, I'd like to talk about the end of your time at Mallinckrodt. I believe this is sometime in the summer of 2015. On what terms did you end your employment with Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: The division was laid off.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. The division was the entire division was laid off?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you have to sign any kind of a separation agreement as part of this layoff?
Karen Degen: I believe we did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And were there any non-disparagement clauses in that separation agreement?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you receive a severance as part of the layoff?
Karen Degen: I believe I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you remember how much that severance was?
Karen Degen: No, I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: To go back to the beginning, to go back to October 2013, do you remember receiving training when you started working at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What did this training consist of?
Karen Degen: I believe we went to St. Louis
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: and were trained there.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And why did you go to St. Louis?
Karen Degen: For training.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Why St. Louis specifically; why not another city?
Karen Degen: Because I that was the headquarters of
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so the training was done at a centralized like location; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And at your training, were there sales managers from other parts of the country?
Karen Degen: I don't remember
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: the specifics. I believe I went into training with sales managers.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you work did you see all of them during the course of your working day after training?
William Davison: Objection. Vague as to "them."
Karen Degen: Did I see who? I don't know who you're talking about.
Leo O'Toole: So you attended your training with other sales managers; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And for at least some of those sales managers, did you never see them again?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: See them when again? I don't -
Leo O'Toole: In life.
Karen Degen: You mean after I left Mallinckrodt?
Leo O'Toole: After you left the training.
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I'm really confused about your question.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recall there being sales managers from the west coast at your training
Karen Degen: I don't remember who was there.
William Davison: Well, let him finish his question.
Karen Degen: Oh, I'm so sorry.
William Davison: Yeah, no worries.
Leo O'Toole: Did you receive any at-home training?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. Okay. How was the training administered? I don't remember. Okay. Do you remember if it was live? I don't remember. Or if it was done by computer? Are you talking about the training when I was first hired?
Leo O'Toole: That's right.
Karen Degen: That I believe I went to St. Louis for that.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And was that done live in St. Louis?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember any computer elements of your introductory training?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: All right. Do you remember who led the training?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Do you remember how long the initial training lasted for?
Karen Degen: I think it was about a workweek
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: but I'm not sure.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And then did you have any kind of refresher trainings during your time at Mallinckrodt?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: We had additional training, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. How often did you have those additional trainings?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Approximately how often?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would you say you had the trainings every year; is that fair to say? At least once a year?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And I'm not sure what you mean by "training." I mean, when you first go when you first get hired by a company, you have initial training because you don't know anything about the company.
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
Karen Degen: And then I do know we did have training when we launched Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I know we had that.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: But outside of those two trainings, I don't remember any other training.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember trainings LEGAL ERVICES associated with other drugs?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Were you given materials as part of your training?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Did the training you received address addiction risk?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: In what way?
Karen Degen: We were trained on black box warnings.
Leo O'Toole: For which drugs?
Karen Degen: For any drug that had a black box warning. So I remember Exalgo had a black box warning and I remember Xartemis had a black box warning.
Leo O'Toole: So what was the content of that? You said that if these drugs had a black box warning, you would be trained on that?
Karen Degen: Yeah.
Leo O'Toole: What were you trained on?
Karen Degen: I remember being trained on abuse LEGAL ERVICES and addiction potential.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what were you trained on regarding abuse and addiction potential?
Karen Degen: That both products were controlled substances and they had abuse and addiction potential.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did the trainings ever discuss keeping patients on a drug at the risk of dependence?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Did the trainings ever talk about diversion of controlled substances?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: So what did the trainings talk about with regards to dependence?
Karen Degen: I don't remember the specifics.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you remember the specifics with regard to diversion of controlled substances?
Karen Degen: I remember high level that there were physicians that had would LEGAL ERVICES inappropriately prescribe opioids. And I also remember where there were, I think, pharmacies who were not appropriately buying opioids.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 6. It's a document produced in this litigation bearing the Bates stamp MNK-NY 0000066436. (Whereupon, E-mail with attachment, Bates number MNK-NY 0000066436 through 6441, was marked as Degen Exhibit 6 for identification, as of this date.) And with it are two attachments
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: located behind this.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What is this document?
Karen Degen: It is outlining the training
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: - for new-hire district managers.
Leo O'Toole: Is it an e-mail?
Karen Degen: Yes, it is an e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: And it is sent to your Mallinckrodt e-mail address?
Karen Degen: I have to look at that. I'm not sure.
Leo O'Toole: It's in the "to" line, the very top of the page.
Karen Degen: No, it was sent to my personal e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Sorry, I'm mistaken. I'm referring to the very top message. It says from Karen to Karen.Degen@Mallinckrodt.com?
Karen Degen: Oh, okay. Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And this is a an agenda for a training beginning the week of October 28, 2013?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. If you could move to the attachment that's marked 66437.
Karen Degen: This one? Okay.
William Davison: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Have you had a chance to read this document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And does this refresh your recollection as to whether there was a home-study component -
Karen Degen: Yes, it does.
Leo O'Toole: of your initial training?
William Davison: Let him finish the question. Just slow down. It's fine.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, you earlier testified that you received training on diversion of controlled substances during your initial training; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recall whether that was during your home-study component or during LEGAL ERVICES the component in St. Louis?
Karen Degen: I don't recall.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see anything on this document that would help refresh your recollection?
Karen Degen: It was discussed during the Exalgo training. I just don't remember when it was trained.
Leo O'Toole: All right. Now, if we can move to the next document in this collection, it's the one ending in Bates number 66439. Do you see that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And if you could go to page 3 with me. Okay, does this refresh your recollection as to what materials you received from Mallinckrodt when you started?
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What materials did you receive? LEGAL ERVICES
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: A computer and well, I'm just going to read off of here.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Computer and printer, a cell phone, an iPad, sales materials, benefits and home-study materials.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. It says here you will receive a basic shipment of sales supplies and literature from SmartSource, Mallinckrodt's literature ordering system; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember what sales supplies you received?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember what literature you received?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. It also says below that, "Note your black leatherette binder of Cares Alliance resources will be in this shipment". What was did I read that correctly?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What was the Cares Alliance?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember receiving Cares Alliance resources?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: You can put that away. I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 7. It's a document produced in this litigation with Bates stamp MNK-NY 0000004331.
Karen Degen: Okay. (Whereupon, E-mail chain, Bates stamped MNK-NY 0000004331 through 4333, was marked as Degen Exhibit 7 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What is this document?
Karen Degen: It is regarding a best practice meeting.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is it; is it an e-mail?
Karen Degen: Oh, it's an e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And it is an e-mail regarding best practices of what product?
Karen Degen: Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And is it fair to say this meeting is a training?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. If you look on the first page, do you see the "from Viggers, Nancy" line?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And then you see "to," there are a number of different sales representatives; is that right?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes. Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. I see Stephanie Rose listed. Was she a sales representative whom you managed?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And Natasia Kakar; was she a sales representative you managed?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And Cynthia Oese; she was a sales representative you managed?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. In the body of that e-mail, it says, "Because of your strong Xartemis XR performance in 3Q14, you are invited to join a select group of your sales specialist colleagues for a Xartemis Best Practices Session Monday 7-14 to Tuesday 7-15 in St. Louis. This will be an exciting opportunity for you to meet your colleagues from across the U.S., share your best practices and learn from your peers." Did I read that correctly?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recall what these best practices were?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: And does reading the third page of this document in any way refresh your recollection?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: I have one last question. Safe to say that this best practices meeting was national in scope?
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Leo O'Toole: I can clarify. The e-mail states that and this is on the second page.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: This do you see where it begins, "This will be an exciting LEGAL ERVICES opportunity"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. This
Karen Degen: Oh, "across the U.S.," yes.
Leo O'Toole: Yeah, so to repeat my question, was this best practices meeting national in scope?
Karen Degen: Now that I'm reading that e-mail, that particular point, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And was it held at Mallinckrodt's corporate headquarters in St. Louis?
Karen Degen: I don't remember where it was held.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Does it say it here? I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. But it was held in St. Louis?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Ms. Degen, what is an opioid?
Karen Degen: An opioid is a product like Xartemis which is used to treat pain, and it also could be a product, something like heroin or fentanyl.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And are you aware that opioids are generally a controlled substance?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Are opioids addictive?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Well, what's the basis for your objection?
William Davison: I mean, she is not an expert on the physical and chemical properties of opioids.
Leo O'Toole: Do you believe that the U.S. is in the middle of an opioid epidemic?
Karen Degen: I don't have enough information to answer that question. I mean, I read in the news, and I don't have enough information to answer that question.
Leo O'Toole: What do you read in the news?
Karen Degen: I read that there are people out there that are abusing heroin and fentanyl. LEGAL ERVICES
Leo O'Toole: Do you believe the United States is in the middle of an opioid crisis?
Karen Degen: I don't have enough information to answer that question. I think there is a problem, yes. And I think it is very sad what's happening, but I don't have enough information to answer that question.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So you have testified that you think there is an opioid problem but that you aren't comfortable testifying that there is an opioid crisis; is that right?
William Davison: Objection. Mischaracterizes her sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Mischaracterizes prior testimony.
Karen Degen: I'm just not sure of the word "crisis." I think there is definitely problems out there with people abusing heroin and fentanyl.
Leo O'Toole: And these problems have been widespread enough to be in the news?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: How long do you think that the LEGAL ERVICES country has been experiencing these problems?
Karen Degen: I don't know.
Leo O'Toole: When you started at Mallinckrodt in October 2013, was the United States experiencing these problems?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know how many Americans have died of opioid overdoses in the last year?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: In the last ten years?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: But you do agree that the abuse of prescription opioids is a serious problem?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And do you agree that the abuse of non-prescription opioids is a serious problem?
Karen Degen: I don't know what you mean by that, "non-prescription opioids." Do you mean heroin?
Leo O'Toole: As an example, sure.
Karen Degen: Do I agree that is a serious problem? Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Do you think the abuse of these prescription opioids affects the health and affects the economic welfare
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: of our country?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you think the abuse of prescription opioids and non-prescription opioids affects the health and economic welfare of New York State?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I think that I really don't have enough information to answer that question.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So you are comfortable testifying that the abuse of prescription opioids affects the health and wellbeing of the United States but not New York State; is that right?
William Davison: Objection. Mischaracterizes her prior testimony.
Karen Degen: I don't have enough information. I don't read specific news articles.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I'm remembering what I have read, and I don't remember specifically reading about New York.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember seeing anything, field rides in New York during your time at Mallinckrodt
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: regarding
William Davison: Sorry. Go ahead.
Leo O'Toole: regarding opioid problems in New York State?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Did people at Mallinckrodt internally discuss the opioid epidemic?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't know the term "opioid epidemic"
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: so I don't know how to answer that question.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did people at Mallinckrodt internally discuss what you've characterized as opioid problems?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So you don't recall during your time at Mallinckrodt over two years of anyone whom you worked with discussing the abuse of the systematic abuse of opioids?
Karen Degen: Correct.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Without disclosing anything that would make you feel uncomfortable, do you know someone that has suffered from an opioid addiction?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And, again, with the same caveat, without disclosing anything that would make LEGAL ERVICES you feel uncomfortable, do you know anyone who has suffered an overdose from opioids?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: And, again, with the same caveat, without disclosing anything that would make you feel uncomfortable, do you know of anyone who has died from opioids?
Karen Degen: Just in the news, reading it in the news.
Leo O'Toole: I think now is a good time to take a break.
William Davison: Great.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going off the record. The time is 10:16 a.m. (Thereupon, a recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're now on the record. The time is 10:37 a.m.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I would now like to talk some about the day-to-day details of working at Mallinckrodt. Did you receive a salary while you were working at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember what that salary was in your last year working at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: I don't remember exactly. It might have been around 160.
Leo O'Toole: $160,000?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And did you receive bonuses in addition to that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you remember the total value of bonuses that you received in your last year at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know how these bonuses were determined?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know how your salary was LEGAL ERVICES determined?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. On what basis was that?
Karen Degen: They told me the number. They just offered me the number and
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: that's what I was hired that's how I was hired, with a certain salary.
Leo O'Toole: And did you have sales goals as a district manager?
Karen Degen: Yes, I believe we did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And how were those goals defined?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Were those goals related to your bonus?
Karen Degen: I believe so.
Leo O'Toole: If you achieved your goals, you would receive a bonus; is that right?
Karen Degen: That I don't remember all the different components. I think that was one LEGAL ERVICES of them.
Leo O'Toole: Can you tell me about the general sales strategy for Xartemis?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: What drugs were Xartemis' competitors?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know what active ingredients are in Xartemis?
Karen Degen: I think it was oxycodone and Tylenol.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you know any other drugs that have those two active ingredients?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Was Mallinckrodt's strategy to gain a market share against other opioids?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: What marketing strategies do you remember regarding Xartemis?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: When your sales reps were detailing Xartemis, did you familiarize LEGAL ERVICES yourself with Xartemis' competitors, competitor drugs?
Karen Degen: Yes. I believe we did, but I don't remember any specifics.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. When your sales reps were detailing Exalgo, did you familiarize yourself with Exalgo's competitor drugs?
Karen Degen: Yes. I believe we did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What drugs were those?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know the active ingredients in Exalgo?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. (Whereupon, E-mail from Karen Degen, Dated May 7, 2014, was marked as Degen Exhibit 8 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 8, MNK-NY 0000003550.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What is this document?
Karen Degen: It's I from I don't remember it specifically, but it's a document I sent to my team outlining when I would be riding with them in the field.
Leo O'Toole: Does this document refresh your recollection regarding sales strategies for Xartemis?
Karen Degen: Yes, it does.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So let me ask, what were the sales strategies for Xartemis?
Karen Degen: It is right here, it is talking about knowing the product. I don't remember specifics outside of what's on this e-mail. Having lunches. I mean, I can read off of this.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. I mean, was part of the sales strategy for Xartemis creating a sense of urgency to gain commitment to write Xartemis?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And the same is true for Exalgo?
Karen Degen: It is yes. It says it right here.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. In that bullet it says, "How many patients will you prescribe XXR for over the next two weeks? I will leave that number of PPIs." What is a PPI?
Karen Degen: I don't remember exactly what it was. I think it was I don't remember the specifics.
Leo O'Toole: What do you remember about the PPI?
Karen Degen: I'd be speculating. I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Is the PPI part of Xartemis' sales strategy?
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation.
Karen Degen: It's in there under call execution, so I think so
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: yes.
Leo O'Toole: It says here in the bullet below, "Protect the script! Stocking is crucial."
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: What do you mean by that?
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Oh, sorry. Excuse me. For the record, it is, "Protect the script! Stocking is critical." What did you mean by that?
Karen Degen: Xartemis was not available in pharmacies. Very few pharmacies had Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: So what, therefore, was the sales strategy?
Karen Degen: In terms of what?
Leo O'Toole: Well, the fact that not many pharmacies had Xartemis, did that lead to a certain sales strategy for Xartemis?
Karen Degen: We tried to get pharmacies to have Xartemis, but very few pharmacies stocked Xartemis, so we tried to get more pharmacies to stock it.
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh. It says there are also virtual programs in the third bullet under resource utilization. What is a virtual program?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: And then it says, "Have you met the minimum expectation of 2?" What did you mean by that?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: How often did you go on field rides with your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: Probably three, maybe four times a week.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. We can put that document aside. How many sales rides do you recall completing how many sales rides did you evaluate your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: I don't know if it would I would call it evaluate. I coached the sales reps. I made sure that they were acting with integrity on every call. That was part of my job as well.
Leo O'Toole: And did you complete a report as part of the field ride?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did. (Whereupon, Field Coaching Report, was marked as Degen Exhibit 9 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 9. That's Bates stamped MNK-NY 0000599629.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: It is a Field Coaching Report.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who completed this document?
Karen Degen: I did.
Leo O'Toole: And which sales representative does this document concern?
Karen Degen: Natasia Kakar.
Leo O'Toole: And when is it dated?
Karen Degen: October 13th and 14th, 2014.
Leo O'Toole: It lists performance metrics; do you see that column?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does this refresh your recollection regarding the performance metrics of the sales representatives?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. It says here, "Xartemis XR TRx." What does that mean?
Karen Degen: Total prescriptions.
Leo O'Toole: And it says below it, "Xartemis XR writers." What does that mean?
Karen Degen: A physician that has prescribed Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And her numbers are high; fair to say, Ms. Degen?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: One of the top reps in the country?
Karen Degen: That's what it says, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Under resource utilization, it says that she utilizes the new formulary app. What was the formulary app?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. I'd like to turn to the last page of the document. Have you read the paragraph dealing with Dr. Regenye?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And in the course of well, in the course of this field ride, Natasia Kakar met with Dr. Regenye; is that right?
Karen Degen: That's what it says, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And he committed to prescribe Xartemis for appropriate patients?
Karen Degen: Yes. That's what it says.
Leo O'Toole: And it says here also that he does 3,000 wisdom teeth surgeries a year?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know what the age of an average wisdom tooth patient is?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. *Redacted - PHI
William Davison: Objection. *Redacted - PHI
Leo O'Toole: Okay. *Redacted - PHI
William Davison: Objection. I'm going to instruct the witness not to answer on private health information of her family.
Leo O'Toole: Very well. Beyond your family, do you know anyone who has had their wisdom teeth removed?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: No? Okay. *Redacted - PHI Okay.
William Davison: I'm going to instruct the witness not to answer private health information about herself.
Leo O'Toole: Did you think Natasia Kakar's detail of Dr. Regenye was done with integrity?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I don't remember these this field ride.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you think it is appropriate for doctors to be prescribing Xartemis for wisdom teeth surgery?
Karen Degen: If it is the appropriate patient.
Leo O'Toole: And sitting here today, do you recall what the indication is for Xartemis?
Karen Degen: No, I don't. I know it is for acute pain.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 10.
Karen Degen: Okay. (Whereupon, Field Coaching Report, was marked as Degen Exhibit 10 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: It's Bates stamped MNKNC00455535.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Is this document a Field Coaching Report?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did you complete this document?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: And is this document regarding Nicholas Yurovsky?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did you manage Nicholas Yurovsky during your time at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: What was his territory?
Karen Degen: Brooklyn.
Leo O'Toole: And this is dated for January 7th and 8th; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Of 2015? So the first question would be does this document refresh your recollection about the sales strategies in New York State for Xartemis?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. In what ways does it refresh your recollection?
Karen Degen: In stocking. It was important to have stocking in the pharmacies. Again, we were calling on surgeons because Xartemis is an acute pain med, so Xartemis was an appropriate medication for a surgical patient.
Leo O'Toole: Was the Business Insights app part of the sales strategy for Xartemis in New York?
Karen Degen: I don't remember the Business Insights app.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see in this document where it says comments under resource utilization, "Did not have Business Insight apps working the first day"?
Karen Degen: Yes, I see that.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Is there anything that leads you to believe that the Business Insights app wasn't part of the New York sales strategy for Xartemis?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember the Business Insights app.
Leo O'Toole: So whether you recall the Business Insights app itself, is there anything that makes you think that the Business Insights app wasn't part of the sales strategy based on the document that you are looking at now?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I'm not sure I understand the question.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So this document here says, "Did not" this is a document you wrote. It says, "Did not have Business LEGAL ERVICES Insights app working the first day."
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: So is there anything in this document that makes you think the Business Insights app was not part of the sales strategy in New York State?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember the Business Insights app.
Leo O'Toole: Does it refresh your recollection regarding other parts of the sales strategy in New York?
Karen Degen: Yes. I as I had indicated, stocking and surgeons for acute pain was a strategy.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. How would you characterize Nicholas Yurovsky as a sales representative?
Karen Degen: Unprofessional.
Leo O'Toole: Unprofessional. Okay. And what makes you say that?
Karen Degen: I found him as this document states, he was aggressive.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was he aggressive with healthcare providers?
Karen Degen: I didn't feel he was professional with healthcare prescribers.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you feel he was unprofessional with other staff at these offices?
Karen Degen: Yes. I think it states that in the field coaching report based on what I am seeing here.
Leo O'Toole: Was he ever aggressive or unprofessional towards you?
Karen Degen: Yes. It indicates it in here that he was unprofessional with me as well.
Leo O'Toole: Did you refer well, did you believe that was inappropriate?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you refer that to HR or your superiors at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: And what was the result of that referral?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. It says on the first page, if you can go back there with me, "Left FTF sheets with doctor." Do you see that on managed care knowledge and pull through?
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: What is the FTF sheet?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And it also says after that, "It is essential to discuss formulary coverage particularly with insertional goal coordinator." Was the formulary coverage part of Xartemis' sales strategy, in your view?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember specifically, but I do know in pharmaceuticals that it is tough for a prescription to go through if it is not covered by the insurance.
Leo O'Toole: And then it says, "Did not discuss how to pull through XXR with staff." What does "pull through" mean?
Karen Degen: It means getting it covered through insurance.
Leo O'Toole: What would happen if a prescription didn't pull through?
Karen Degen: It wouldn't get fulfilled.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would a doctor likely prescribe an alternate prescription?
Karen Degen: I don't know.
Leo O'Toole: The next category is account-based selling.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: When your sales representatives detailed doctors' offices, whom did they sell to?
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: If that's unclear, I'll say whom did they talk to?
Karen Degen: Yes. The surgical coordinator
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: was important.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Anyone else?
Karen Degen: The physician. And I think that was it.
Leo O'Toole: Also under the business acumen heading is territory action plan. Do you see that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What is a territory action plan?
Karen Degen: I think that was the plan, their business plan.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was it a call plan?
Karen Degen: I don't remember if calls was on the territory action plan.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember
Karen Degen: I think it was
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: but I'm not sure.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember what was on the territory action plan?
Karen Degen: I think target targets were on there.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What do you mean by "targets"?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. Oh, targets was someone that they call on.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Target meant that they called on that particular physician.
Leo O'Toole: So that would be a doctor, for example?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Or a physician's assistant?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So just to make sure we're on the same page, it seems like your understanding of the territory action plan is that it is a list of targets; is that right?
William Davison: Objection. Mischaracterizes her testimony.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: No?
Karen Degen: I don't remember all the specifics
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: of the territory action plan I believe targeting was a part of it
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: but I'm not sure.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And was it important as part of Xartemis' sales strategy in New York to follow that plan?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember the specifics of the territory action plan.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So in the last sentence in that, in your comments
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: it says, "Nicholas needs to follow the business plan that was created."
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Does that refresh your recollection?
Karen Degen: About?
Leo O'Toole: About whether following the business plan was an was a part of Xartemis' sales strategy in New York?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: From this, it sounds like it was, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. We can go to page ending in 38 at the bottom. Is it your recollection that Mr. Yurovsky was stressed during this field sales call?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: That's what it says in the coaching report.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was it common for your sales representatives to be stressed?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Not that I remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know why Mr. Yurovsky might have been stressed?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: If a sales representative recorded that they had made a call when they had not, in fact, made a call, would that be inappropriate?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: And do you recall any instance when Nicholas Yurovsky did that?
Karen Degen: It indicates he did in the coaching report.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did you refer this to HR?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you recall what the outcome of that referral was?
William Davison: Objection. Asked and answered.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: I think we can put that document aside for now. (Whereupon, E-mail chain with attachment, Bates stamped MNK-NY 0000040313 through 0316, was marked as Degen Exhibit 11 for identification, as of this date.) Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 11, and the Bates stamp is MNK-NY 0000040313. Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What is this document?
Karen Degen: It's an e-mail I sent to a sales representative.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did you manage this sales representative?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what is her name?
Karen Degen: Pamil Singh.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is this if you go to the very end of this e-mail, there is some kind of a box at the bottom of it. Can you explain to me what this is?
Karen Degen: I have to look at it because
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I don't remember it. LEGAL ERVICES It looks like it is tracking prescriptions for Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so Mallinckrodt would track the number of Xartemis prescriptions within a certain territory; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And in this instance, you saw that the number of prescriptions in Pamil Singh's territory was decreasing; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: That's what it says here.
Leo O'Toole: And so you reached out to her to find out what was going on?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Is that right?
Karen Degen: That is what this e-mail was about.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. How did she respond?
Karen Degen: I have to look at the e-mail
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: because I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: She talked about her ideas for the territory.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did she say, "Some of my targets have told me that the previous representatives were begging them to writing because if they didn't, they would lose their jobs"?
Karen Degen: That's what
William Davison: Objection. Document speaks for itself. Go ahead.
Karen Degen: That's what it says here.
Leo O'Toole: How did you react to that?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Sitting here today, does that statement concern you?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Why does it concern you?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't know if this actually happened. I don't remember this. But that would not be professional.
Leo O'Toole: Why wouldn't it be professional?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: That's not the way you interact with a physician.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recall telling that to Pamil Singh?
Karen Degen: Do I recall what? I'm sorry.
Leo O'Toole: That you thought that it was inappropriate for previous representatives to be begging physicians to write because if they didn't they would lose their job?
William Davison: Objection. Mischaracterizes her prior testimony.
Karen Degen: I don't remember having a conversation about this
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: with Pamil.
Leo O'Toole: Have you read your e-mail response to Pamil Singh?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you tell her it was inappropriate?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Not in this e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you tell her otherwise?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: What was your response to Pamil's e-mail?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Looking at this e-mail, does that refresh your recollection?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: I'd like to go to her response, the penultimate e-mail in this chain. Do you see what time it is sent, Ms. Degen?
Karen Degen: Her response?
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: Friday, November 21st; is that where you're looking?
Leo O'Toole: No. I'm looking at the second-to-most recent, Sunday, November 23, 2014.
Karen Degen: Yes, Sunday, yes, at 11:41 p.m.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was it typical for a sales rep to e-mail you at Sunday at 11 p.m.?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I didn't look at times or dates.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. *Redacted - PHI
Karen Degen: That's what she says here, yes.
Leo O'Toole: All right. *Redacted - PHI
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes, it's the next day.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Thanks. We can put that aside. How are you doing break-wise; do you need a break? Can you keep going?
Karen Degen: Yes, could I take a quick break?
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
Karen Degen: Okay. Thank you.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off LEGAL ERVICES the record. The time is 11:24 a.m. (Thereupon, a recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're now on the record. The time is 11:29 a.m.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, how did you motivate your sales reps?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Being positive, encouraging, encouraging them, being supportive.
Leo O'Toole: Would you ever criticize them?
Karen Degen: I don't know if "criticize" is a term I would use. I provided constructive feedback.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would you ever discipline your sales representatives?
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Karen Degen: Yeah, I was going to ask, what do you mean by "discipline"?
Leo O'Toole: Report their conduct to HR, for example.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Was part of your responsibility as district sales manager to evaluate your sales representatives?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: On what basis did you evaluate your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: At Mallinckrodt?
Leo O'Toole: Yes.
Karen Degen: When you look at the Coaching Report, I believe those are the parameters.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you have a Coaching Report in your exhibit, Ms. Degen?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: And which one is that?
Karen Degen: This one I just put in front of me was Nicholas Yurovsky.
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: At the do you need me to give you the number?
Leo O'Toole: Please.
Karen Degen: MNK NC00455535.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And on what basis you said that the bases are in this Field Coaching Report.
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: What would you point to as the bases on which you evaluate your sales reps?
Karen Degen: It has influence selling and it has ratings there.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: So it looks like that was the parameters we used to evaluate a rep.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And would you evaluate them upon business acumen?
Karen Degen: We discussed it on the Field Coaching Reports, yes.
Leo O'Toole: And would you evaluate them on performance metrics?
Karen Degen: Yes, that's in the Field Coaching Report as well.
Leo O'Toole: Would you evaluate them on sales messaging?
Karen Degen: That's under influence selling, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. How often did you evaluate sales reps?
Karen Degen: When we rode out in the field with them, we provided Field Coaching Reports.
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh. Is it fair to say that you would evaluate them at least every few months then?
Karen Degen: It depends on when you rode with them, but the majority of time, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was your sales were your representatives' compensation tied to their evaluations?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: It was tied to the incentive compensation plan.
Leo O'Toole: What was the incentive compensation plan?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
William Davison: Just so the record is clear, when we're just going forward, we'll expect that you're talking about her time at Mallinckrodt
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
William Davison: unless you tell us otherwise about generally what you're asking about. Does that make sense?
Leo O'Toole: Fair enough.
William Davison: Okay. I just wanted to make sure that that was clear to you as well.
Karen Degen: Okay. Okay, sure.
William Davison: We're not talking about your entire time in the pharmaceutical industry.
Karen Degen: Okay. (Whereupon, E-mail chain with attachment, Bates stamped MNKNC00518581 through 18597, was marked as Degen Exhibit 12 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 12 with the LEGAL ERVICES Bates stamp of MNKNC00518581.
William Davison: And just for the record, it looks like the Bates stamp jumps of the document you put it behind it from 18582 to 18585.
Leo O'Toole: That's correct.
William Davison: Okay. Are you representing, though, that this was an attachment to this e-mail?
Leo O'Toole: That's correct.
William Davison: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Yes.
William Davison: Was there another attachment then?
Leo O'Toole: There was.
William Davison: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: I believe that was the calculator.
William Davison: Okay. And also, sorry, just so the record is clear, the highlighting was in the original document; is that accurate?
Leo O'Toole: I believe so.
William Davison: Okay. Thank you.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, let's start with the e-mail that ends in 8581. The Bates
Karen Degen: Where would I find So the Bates number at the bottom right. Oh, okay.
Leo O'Toole: It's the e-mail on top.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does have you had a chance to read this e-mail?
Karen Degen: I read the first two pages.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you recognize it?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: It's an e-mail I sent to my team.
Leo O'Toole: Has this refreshed your recollection regarding the incentive compensation plan for your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: I know this is an e-mail I sent with the incentive compensation attached.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so what was the incentive compensation plan?
Karen Degen: I would have to
William Davison: Objection. Go ahead.
Karen Degen: I would have to read all the different components to remember it. I don't remember it.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Is it fair to say that the incentive compensation plan included payments based on the number of writers of Xartemis?
Karen Degen: Yes, based on what I'm reading on this first page, yes.
Leo O'Toole: And is it fair to say that the incentive compensation plan included a trip for the district with the most writers?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Have you had an opportunity to read the document that is an attachment that begins with the Bates stamp ending in 8585? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: No, I
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I have not.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. We can go through this page by
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: in that case.
William Davison: Well, why don't you read it, review it first so you can familiarize yourself with the document.
Karen Degen: Okay. Okay.
William Davison: So go ahead and do that.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Have you had an opportunity to read the incentive compensation plan?
Karen Degen: Yes, I have.
Leo O'Toole: Did you send this to your sales representatives in New York and New Jersey?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
Leo O'Toole: What period is this incentive compensation plan for?
Karen Degen: I'd have to look at the e-mail. It looks like it is discussing Quarter 3 and Quarter 4.
Leo O'Toole: Of what year?
Karen Degen: 2014.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recall whether this compensation plan had any kind of a cap?
Karen Degen: No, I don't recall.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Has reading this incentive compensation plan refreshed your recollection?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what is what can you now testify to?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: It looks like the compensation plan was based on three drugs: Exalgo, Pennsaid and Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And how was it based on those drugs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: For all three? You want me to discuss all three?
Leo O'Toole: Well, let's start with Exalgo.
Karen Degen: Okay. I would have to read it
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: because I don't remember the specifics. It doesn't say for Exalgo what the parameters were.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: It talks about goals, but it doesn't talk about how they were determined, so I don't and I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. But it accounts for part of the overall bonus payout; is that right?
Karen Degen: It says here that promotion ceased on May 16th, so it looks like there were May goals.
Leo O'Toole: And below it, do you see it says, "Exalgo will still account for 20 percent of the overall bonus payout"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. If we turn to the page ending in 8590
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: do you see where it says, "Territory Quarterly Target Dollars for 100% of Goal"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see the bottom of that section? It says, "Uncapped plan escalates with performance"?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does that refresh your recollection whether there was any kind of a cap on this incentive compensation plan?
Karen Degen: I don't remember it and it looks like here it is saying it is uncapped because it is escalating with performance, so I think it is uncapped.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you recall what the plan design, what the goal of the plan design was?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I'm not sure I know what you mean.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. If I turn to or if we turn to page, the page ending in 8591
Karen Degen: Okay. Oh, it says it right here.
Leo O'Toole: Great. Do you see it says, "Plan Design is to incentivize representatives to grow both prescriptions and number of prescribers." For the "Q4 Xartemis XR-Individual Payout Plan"?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes, I see that.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see in this column where it says, "# of Writers; 16+; Incentive/TRx Rate: $65"?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: It says on the next slide that "If National performance during a six month period meets or exceeds the forecast; all eligible Sales Specialists will receive a $1,500 bonus." Do you see that?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Did you receive that bonus?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I don't think we did, hut I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: And on the next page is the "Q4 Xartemis XR Team Contest" slide. Do you see that?
Karen Degen: I do.
Leo O'Toole: And this is the contest you won, right?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I don't remember winning that contest, but I did see the e-mail you sent me. And was that the contest? Because I don't remember. Okay.
Leo O'Toole: And it says here, "The basis of this content is to expedite the growth of Xartemis XR through the successful promotion and conversion of a larger physician base"; is that right?
Karen Degen: That's what it says here, yes.
Leo O'Toole: So to return to how your sales representatives were compensated, they received compensation for the number of prescribers of Xartemis in their territory; is that correct?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: It says here it was based on prescriptions and number of prescribers.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So it is both the number of prescriptions and the number of prescribers; is that right?
Karen Degen: That that's what it says here, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know what percentage of an average sales representative's compensation would be comprised of their salary and what percentage would be comprised of a bonus?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: The last thing I would like to talk about in this document is on the slide page 8596. So what does this slide discuss?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: It targeting.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see the "Physician Valuation" column?
Karen Degen: I do.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see the "Q4 FY14 Proposed" column?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And it says, "Decile based on Oxy combo, Oxy IR, Oxy ER (strength 30 milligrams and lower).
Karen Degen: Under yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: What do you take that to mean?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I have to think about it. I
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
Karen Degen: don't remember this.
William Davison: Are you asking her to interpret it today or whether she remembers what this means based on her time there?
Karen Degen: Because I don't remember this. I would I can only comment on what it says here, but I don't know the thought process behind it
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Well, let me break it down. It says "decile" here; what is a decile? What does that mean in this context?
Karen Degen: I think it was each doctor had a decile and the decile from reading there is two different deciles, according to this. And the decile was based on other medications.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what were those medications?
Karen Degen: For what period, time period?
Leo O'Toole: That it listed in this document.
Karen Degen: Okay. Quarter 3 was Hydro Combo, Oxy Combo, Oxy IR, Oxy ER, Nucynta and Oxceta.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And are any of those drugs opioids?
Karen Degen: They are, yes.
Leo O'Toole: And what about the drugs for Q4?
Karen Degen: Oxy Combo, Oxy IR and Oxy ER. And they are opioids; is that the question?
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: Yes, they are opioids.
Leo O'Toole: Moving down a row, this slide talks about the targeting prioritization criteria.
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: What was the targeting prioritization criteria for Q4?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Do you want me to read it?
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: "Along with decile, prioritize high acute share and high commercial coverage HCPs."
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Well, what do you take that to mean?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: High commercial coverage means that the doctors I would I'm speculating this. I think it means that they had formularies where the drugs were prescribed, LEGAL ERVICES but I don't remember what it means.
Leo O'Toole: What does high acute share mean?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I think that means high acute share of those medications listed, but I'm not sure. I wasn't I didn't put this together. I don't remember this.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Ms. Degen, I'd like to talk a little bit more about targeting.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: How did Mallinckrodt choose to target the HCPs that it targeted?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: That was done by an organization inside of headquarters and I wasn't part of those discussions.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does Mallinckrodt track the prescriptions written by certain prescribers?
Karen Degen: For what for Xartemis?
Leo O'Toole: For Xartemis, yeah.
Karen Degen: Yes, they did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And that info that information was available to someone at Mallinckrodt; is that correct?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was it available to you?
Karen Degen: Yes, because I saw an e-mail where I sent that out.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so you could see which doctors were prescribing Xartemis in New York and New Jersey; is that right?
Karen Degen: I would have to look back
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: in the e-mail to see if I saw the doctor.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was that information available to your sales reps as well?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recall the process for coming up with this targeting list?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: So you said there was someone help me out. There was someone within the organization who made these; is that right?
Karen Degen: I yes, who created this plan.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Was it possible for you to add HCPs if you wanted to?
Karen Degen: I believe there was, it was possible, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Was it possible for you to remove HCPs if you wanted to?
Karen Degen: Yes, it was.
Leo O'Toole: What did you know about an HCP without having visited their office but knowing that they were on this target list?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Did the target list target certain kind of doctors? LEGALSERVICES
Karen Degen: I think our target list were have changed a number of times. So what what's the question again?
Leo O'Toole: The target lists.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Did they prioritize targeting certain kinds of doctors during your time at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: It says here that surgeons
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yeah, and that is something that we we called on surgeons.
Leo O'Toole: And were there any doctors as a general rule who you would not call on?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't know what you mean by that. That is pretty broad. Do you mean specialties? I don't know what you're referring to.
Leo O'Toole: Yes, that's what I'm referring to So, for example, would you as a general rule not call on pediatricians?
Karen Degen: Oh, no, we do not call on LEGAL ERVICES pediatricians.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. During your time at Mallinckrodt, did the target lists target specific types of patients?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: The I don't know what you mean by that question. We didn't target patient I don't know what you mean.
Leo O'Toole: Did you in your time at Mallinckrodt, did you ever see a target list that targeted a doctor who had a disproportionate number of patients who were seniors, for example?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. In your time at Mallinckrodt, did you ever see a target list that targeted a doctor who had a disproportionate number of patients who were veterans?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: In your time at Mallinckrodt, did you see a target list that had doctors with a disproportionate number of patients with arthritis?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't ever remember talking about arthritis in regards to Xartemis. And I do want to add that we would not because arthritis is a chronic condition and this medication is indicated for acute. (Whereupon, E-mail chain, Bates stamped MNK NC00611956 through 1957, was marked as Degen Exhibit 13 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 13. It's Bates stamped with MNK NC00611956.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: It is an e-mail that I sent to Stacy. Oh, and Maggie was on this e-mail chain as well.
Leo O'Toole: To clarify, Ms. Degen, is this an e-mail that Stacy sent you?
William Davison: Which e-mail are you talking about?
Leo O'Toole: I'm referring to the e-mail that I believe Ms. Degen was referring to, the one that was sent November 25, 2014.
Karen Degen: It says to me, yes.
Leo O'Toole: To you?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: From Stacy; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes, it does.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Based on your review of this e-mail that you received from Stacy, what were the criteria for developing TAPs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember what the criteria was
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: for the TAPs.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does TAP stand for territory LEGAL ERVICES action plan?
Karen Degen: I believe so, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see the bulleted section
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: in this e-mail?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see it says, "Prioritized plan with unrestricted reimbursement"?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: And then do you also see that it says, "Look for HCP targets which have greatest unrestricted acute Oxy potential"?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: And then do you see that it also says, "Plan routing that allows for group practice approach"?
Karen Degen: I do.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Earlier in this e-mail, Stacy writes to you and she says, "With the XXR formulary tool in repair and without Business Insights ability to view payer mix at the HCP level, as you review your sales specialists' TAPs and guide them to where they have the most immediate XXR opportunity, please let me know how they incorporate information from the attached into their TAP and prioritize their time." Did I read that correctly?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: So part of your responsibilities as a district manager was to review your sales specialist TAPs and to guide them where they had the most immediate XXR opportunity; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recall what reviewing these TAPs consisted of?
Karen Degen: I don't remember the criteria for the TAPs.
Leo O'Toole: And do you recall what form the guidance took that you gave them?
Karen Degen: I remember sending e-mails. I remember reps sending me their TAPs, and I remember reviewing them and sending them feedback.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. When you reviewed a TAP, what was the goal of your review?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: To ensure whether a TAP met the guidelines.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what were those guidelines?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: In this case, the guideline was the most immediate XXR opportunity?
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Is that right?
William Davison: Mischaracterizes the document.
Karen Degen: Are you saying that that was the guideline for the TAP? Because I don't I don't remember I see the e-mail and I see she is saying that.
Leo O'Toole: I'm asking you from your review of this document that was sent
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: to you
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: whether the guidelines along which you would review TAPs in this case, in this specific case were directed towards producing the most immediate XXR opportunity?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: That's what it looks like in this e-mail, but I don't remember. (Whereupon, E-mail chain, Bates stamped MNK NC00988130 through 8132, was marked as Degen Exhibit 14 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 14, Bates stamp of MNK NC00988130.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is this document?
Karen Degen: It is a conversation on e-mail between Maggie, and then Stacy Chick and myself.
Leo O'Toole: What is the subject of this e-mail?
Karen Degen: How we develop TAPs in a limited access market, Brooklyn example.
Leo O'Toole: How did you develop the TAP in this case?
Karen Degen: Can I read it?
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
Karen Degen: Okay. Do you want me to read the whole e-mail?
Leo O'Toole: Sure.
Karen Degen: Okay. "Thank you for the productive discussion regarding maximizing potential performance."
Leo O'Toole: You can read it aloud if you would like. You don't need to read it aloud.
Karen Degen: Oh, okay.
Leo O'Toole: As you wish.
Karen Degen: I mean, I'm reading it and it is pretty this is pretty detailed.
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I don't remember this. I mean, it is outlining on here, and so based on this, we were looking at access for EXR for physicians.
Leo O'Toole: What do you mean by "access"?
Karen Degen: Where the patient had the ability to get the medication based on the formulary that their insurance provided.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And anything else?
Karen Degen: Anything else with regards to the TAP, you mean?
Leo O'Toole: Yeah, with regards to the TAP.
Karen Degen: Okay. Okay. It also looks like we looked at other medications.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And specifically which medications?
Karen Degen: This particular one was looking at Oxy combo.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: And Oxy combo volume and acute share.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And you have listed two targets here.
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Who were these targets? Do you
Karen Degen: I don't remember those targets.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that the e-mail says that Dr. Emmanuel Lambrakis was the No. 1 target according to target list?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Did you ever meet Emmanuel Lambrakis?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you ever go to his offices?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see Dr. William Lackey?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And according to this e-mail, he is No. 14, according to the target list; is LEGAL ERVICES that right?
Karen Degen: I yes, I see.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Same questions: Did you ever meet
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you ever detail or accompany a sales rep detailing his offices?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
William Davison: Are you finished with this doc?
Leo O'Toole: I am.
William Davison: Do you want to take a break? I think I might need
Leo O'Toole: I have one more of this
William Davison: Okay. Are you okay to go one more document?
Karen Degen: Sure.
William Davison: Yeah, do you want to take a break now?
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now off LEGAL ERVICES the record. The time is 12:12 p.m. (Thereupon, a recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're on the record. The time is 12:17 p.m.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen Degen, excuse me, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 15, MN
William Davison: Sorry. Can I get a copy of that?
Leo O'Toole: Yeah. I'll -
William Davison: Oh, okay. (Whereupon, E-mail chain with attachment, Bates stamped MNK NC00455530, was marked as Degen Exhibit 15 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: MNK NC00455530. And to give a full explanation, attached to this is a PDF that was produced in native format. There is a slip sheet LEGAL ERVICES reflecting that. The PDF doesn't have any alterations aside from what was produced to us.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize the e-mail?
Karen Degen: No. I see I wrote it, but I don't remember this e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that it is an e-mail from Nicholas Yurovsky to you sent January 8, 2015?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And in it he says, "Please find updated TAP attached."
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And have you had a chance to read the updated TAP?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: It's pretty do you want me to read the entire thing?
Leo O'Toole: So you don't need to read the LEGAL ERVICES whole thing.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: I just want to ask you a few questions about it and then we can get to lunch. So the first question would be what territory is this a territory action plan for?
Karen Degen: It says it is Brooklyn
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: New York.
Leo O'Toole: And for what period is this a territory action plan?
Karen Degen: It says, "Review period, January 2nd, 2015."
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see the name Emmanuel Lambrakis anywhere in this sheet?
Karen Degen: What's the last name?
Leo O'Toole: Lambrakis. And the sheet appears to be sorted alphabetically.
Karen Degen: Okay. Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: And do you what does it say under target type in that column? It should be the second column.
Karen Degen: Target type says "target."
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what is his rank?
Karen Degen: Number 1.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Moving over, what is this 13-week Oxy total?
Karen Degen: 1,068.
Leo O'Toole: And what is this 13-week Oxy Combo?
Karen Degen: 148.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And how many calls have there been since launch?
Karen Degen: 18.
Leo O'Toole: In the comments section
Karen Degen: Comments section for that doctor?
Leo O'Toole: For that doctor. Do you see it says "Workers' Comp., Dr. Zenetos son godfather"? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know who Dr. Zenetos is?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Never met him?
Karen Degen: I don't know. I don't remember. I don't remember that name.
Leo O'Toole: And you neither you nor your sales representatives have ever or excuse me. Strike that. Have you ever detailed Dr. Zenetos' offices?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: I think that's all I have.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now off the record. The time is 12:21 p.m. (Thereupon, a luncheon recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're now on the record. The time is 1:04 p.m.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 16. That's marked with the Bates stamp MNK-NY 0000534792. If you could read the e-mail for me please, and I will be directing you to certain parts of the attached of the attachments, so there is no need to read through the attachments in their entirety.
Karen Degen: Read this first page? (Whereupon, E-mail with attachment Bates stamped MNK-NY 0000534792, was marked as Degen Exhibit 16 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: "Sorry, these are the 125"
Leo O'Toole: Oh, so you don't have to read aloud. Just let me know when you've read it.
Karen Degen: Oh, okay. (Reviewing document.)
Leo O'Toole: Are you done?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: So do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: I recognize it's an e-mail, yes.
Leo O'Toole: And whom is the e-mail sent to?
Karen Degen: Jay Rago.
Leo O'Toole: Whom is it sent to, not who is it sent from.
Karen Degen: Oh, sent to me.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And from Jay Rago?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is the title of the e-mail?
Karen Degen: Q4 FY14 Target Lists, 10200 NYC, NY 072014.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And if you could turn to the attached Excels, do you see the Excel that's marked at the bottom 10205?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see in Row 8 that there is Emmanuel Lambrakis?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see in Row 20 there is a doctor by the name of Dante Cubangbang?
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Cubangbang, C-U-B-A-N-G-B-A-N-G. And turning to the next attachment, which is marked 10207.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see that there it's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Do you see eight doctors down, there is a doctor by the name of Richard Cedeno?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize the name Richard Cedeno?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know what Strike that. These target lists are for Q4 FY14; is that correct?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: That's what it states on the e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Are you aware that Richard Cedeno was indicted in 2013?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
Leo O'Toole: Do you think it is appropriate for Mallinckrodt to be targeting doctors who have been indicted?
William Davison: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
Karen Degen: If there was knowledge of them being indicted by Mallinckrodt, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Are you aware of any procedures that Mallinckrodt had to prevent doctors who have been indicted from appearing on target lists?
Karen Degen: Yes. When we had knowledge that a doctor was indicted or was suspended, then they were removed from the target list.
Leo O'Toole: So why is Richard Cedeno's name still here?
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation. Assumes not facts not in evidence.
Karen Degen: I don't know.
Leo O'Toole: And if you can move to the next Excel. At the bottom, it has 10212.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: And then do you see in Row 14 there is a doctor by the name of Leonard Marchetta?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does that name ring any bells?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Are you representing that this spreadsheet contains all of the information in the attachment?
Leo O'Toole: No. I'm what I'm representing it contains all of the information from the sheets which have been produced. So the sheets that have been produced are 10205, 10207 and 10212. There are sheets that haven't been produced.
William Davison: I don't understand that. What do you mean by sheets that have not been produced? Haven't been produced by Mallinckrodt?
Leo O'Toole: I'm sorry, sheets that haven't been given to you.
William Davison: So are you saying that this is one tab from the Excel?
Leo O'Toole: So each of these is yeah, it is a sheet.
William Davison: Okay. Okay.
Leo O'Toole: And there are sheets that haven't been included.
William Davison: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Does that address your question?
William Davison: Yes. Thank you.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. We can put that document aside.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I would like to ask you a few questions regarding sales visits that your sales representatives paid to doctors. LEGAL ERVICES Could you describe what generally happened on one of these visits?
Karen Degen: Yes. We would introduce ourselves to the person at the desk. We would ask to see the physician or the provider. And if we were able to see the doctor, then we would educate the physician about the product as well as the risks associated with the product.
Leo O'Toole: Would you ever talk to patients in these, or would your sales representatives ever talk to patients on these visits?
Karen Degen: Not that I recall.
Leo O'Toole: Each week, how many HCPs did your sales reps visit?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Approximately?
Karen Degen: 25 to 40, approximately.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would you provide constructive criticism if one of your sales representatives was visiting fewer than 25 HCPs in a week?
William Davison: Objection. Go ahead.
Karen Degen: I believe if representatives' calls were lower, there was feedback provided.
Leo O'Toole: Have any patients, to your knowledge, asked any of your sales representatives about Mallinckrodt products?
Karen Degen: No, not to my knowledge.
Leo O'Toole: What was the goal of each visit?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: To educate the decision, to make a responsible decision on what medication to prescribe.
Leo O'Toole: And could that responsible decision include prescribing Mallinckrodt drugs?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: During these sales visits, would you ever bring would your sales representatives ever bring samples of your drugs?
Karen Degen: No. Let me clarify that. Pennsaid, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh. Would your sales representatives ever bring marketing materials and leave them behind?
Karen Degen: No, not to my knowledge.
Leo O'Toole: Are you familiar with a leave-behind?
Karen Degen: Yes, I'm familiar with what that means.
Leo O'Toole: What is a leave-behind?
Karen Degen: A leave-behind is what has been approved to leave behind in a doctor's office.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so there would be materials that your sales representatives would leave behind?
Karen Degen: I don't
William Davison: Objection. Sorry. Go ahead.
Karen Degen: I don't remember if we did it at Mallinckrodt. I know that representatives that I have coached have left behind materials.
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: I don't remember if we did at Mallinckrodt or not.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would you ever bring would you or any of your sales representatives ever bring lunch to these visits?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who were the lunches for?
Karen Degen: The staff and everyone at that office.
Leo O'Toole: Would that include patients?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So explain to me who you mean by "everyone at the office."
Karen Degen: Everyone who is a staff. It would be staff
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: at that physician's office.
Leo O'Toole: What would you would you be present at these lunches?
Karen Degen: If I was working with them, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What would you discuss at those lunches?
Karen Degen: Many different things. Every office was different. But the goal was to discuss the again, educating the doctors about the advantages of the product we were discussing as well as the risks.
Leo O'Toole: Would you ever present material during these lunches to doctors? And by "material" here, I mean material related to Mallinckrodt during your time at Mallinckrodt.
Karen Degen: We would use approved sales aids.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And were those approved by corporate?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you ever talk about the addictiveness of Xartemis
William Davison: Sorry.
Leo O'Toole: with the staff at HCPs' offices
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: during your lunches?
William Davison: Objection. Sorry.
Karen Degen: Whenever Xartemis was discussed, it was a requirement that they also discuss the risks associated with Xartemis
Leo O'Toole: What were
Karen Degen: and one of the risks is abuse.
Leo O'Toole: Excuse me.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What were other risks associated that you would discuss during these lunches?
Karen Degen: Abuse and dependence.
Leo O'Toole: Would you ever discuss withdrawal?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Would you ever discuss overdose?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Fatal overdoses?
Karen Degen: Whatever was in that black box warning, and I don't remember all the specifics of that black box warning.
Leo O'Toole: Did you ever discuss did you or any of your sales representatives ever discuss pseudoaddiction during these lunches?
Karen Degen: I don't even know what that means
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Just so I'm capturing the broad universe here, during your time at Mallinckrodt, you and your sales representatives paid visits to doctors; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And during your time at Mallinckrodt, you and your employees paid visits to physician's assistants; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And same question for nurse practitioners; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Did you ever make any did you or your sales representatives ever make visits to nursing homes?
Karen Degen: I don't think so.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Hospitals?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Describe those visits.
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I remember being in a hospital and it was regarding Ofirmev.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Which hospital?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you remember which state?
Karen Degen: New York.
Leo O'Toole: Newark?
Karen Degen: New York.
Leo O'Toole: New York. Okay. To the best of your recollection, did you ever detail Leonard Marchetta?
Karen Degen: I don't remember that name.
Leo O'Toole: And did you ever did you or any of your sales representatives ever detail Richard Cedeno?
Karen Degen: I don't remember that name.
Leo O'Toole: Did you or any of your sales representatives ever detail Dante Cubangbang?
Karen Degen: I don't remember that name.
Leo O'Toole: And did you or any of your sales representatives ever detail Emmanuel Lambrakis?
Karen Degen: I don't remember that name. (Whereupon, E-mail with attachment, Bates stamped MNK NC00455356, was marked as Degen Exhibit 17 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 17. It's got a Bates stamp of MNK NC00455356. And to explain what I'm handing you right now, there is an e-mail with a Bates stamp ending in 356. There is a slipsheet noting that the document the attachment is produced in native format and that attachment is Bates number ending in 358. And the two sheets from this file are 10204 and 10206.
William Davison: And so was there a second attachment?
Leo O'Toole: No. I believe there was one attachment.
William Davison: Okay. Just as long as it didn't skip a bit. I thought it skipped?
Leo O'Toole: I think this is front and back.
William Davison: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know it was front and back.
Leo O'Toole: Yeah, yeah.
William Davison: Thank you.
Leo O'Toole: No worries. Are you ready?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Have you you have had a chance to read the e-mail; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes. Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recognize this e-mail?
Karen Degen: I don't remember it. I don't remember this e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that this is an e-mail from Karen Degen?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see that this is addressed to a number of people, some of whom are your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see that the title of this is 10200 District 11-14-14?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And you wrote this e-mail; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is a push report?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I looked at it and it said that it's targets and prescribers.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. If I could direct your attention to the tab or excuse me, to the Excel LEGAL ERVICES sheet that has 10204 at the bottom.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see in Row 41
Karen Degen: Wow. This is small print.
Leo O'Toole: Yeah, sorry.
Karen Degen: Can I write on it?
Leo O'Toole: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: So and do you see the name Emmanuel Lambrakis?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And if we go all the way over to the column that lists Xartemis or Xartemis call activity since launch -
Karen Degen: Yeah.
Leo O'Toole: it is Column W.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see what the value is for that column?
Karen Degen: Is it 18?
Leo O'Toole: It's 18, that's right.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Are you aware that Dr. Lambrakis LEGAL ERVICES has plead guilty to conspiring to unlawfully distribute medically unnecessary oxycodone in the Southern District of New York?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. (Discussion held off the record.)
Leo O'Toole: If I can direct your attention all the way to Row 542.
Karen Degen: Row 542.
Leo O'Toole: It should be on the same sheet.
Karen Degen: The same sheet? Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that the name there is Dante Cubangbang?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And if we go all the way over to Column W, do you see that the value is 12?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So 12 calls since Xartemis launch. LEGAL ERVICES
William Davison: Was there a question there?
Leo O'Toole: I'm about to ask a question.
William Davison: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Does the name Dr. Dante Cubangbang sound familiar?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Are you aware that Dr. Cubangbang was indicted in 2018?
William Davison: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: You can move to the next sheet. It should be marked 10206.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see that this is a table entitled Reports of XXR Targets and Prescribers as of Week Ending November 14, 2014?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see that this is for the territory 10206, Plainfield, New Jersey?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And if you can, turn to entry 315.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see the name Leonard Marchetta in that row?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And do you see that his address going over is Staten Island, New York?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: If we go all the way over to Column W, which reflects Xartemis call activity since launch, the value is 17; isn't that right?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I'm having a hard time. It's so small, but
Leo O'Toole: Should be the
Karen Degen: The values. Okay, yes.
Leo O'Toole: 17. Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes, I see it.
Leo O'Toole: Do you have any reason to think LEGAL ERVICES that 17 visits weren't paid on Dr Marchetta excuse me, Mr. Marchetta?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember this physician.
Leo O'Toole: Are you aware that Dr. Marchetta was sentenced in 2015 to 11 years, again in the Southern District for conspiring to distribute large quantities of oxycodone out of a Staten Island-based medical clinic?
William Davison: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: We're done with that document. During field rides, have you noticed any characteristics of prescribers who have written a high number of Xartemis prescriptions?
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Karen Degen: No, I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Are there any practices that you have noticed of prescribers who prescribe a high number of Xartemis prescriptions?
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Karen Degen: Could you repeat the question?
Leo O'Toole: Sure. Are there any practices by HCPs that you have noticed of HCPs who prescribe a high number of Xartemis prescriptions?
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What are those practices?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I don't remember specific practices, if that's what you're asking.
Leo O'Toole: That let me try to rephrase it a different way. Is there a certain attribute that you think characterizes HCPs who prescribe a high number of Xartemis prescriptions?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Objection. Vague.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: During your field rides, have you ever seen especially crowded waiting rooms at any of the doctors that your sales representatives have detailed?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Can you tell me some more about those experiences?
Karen Degen: Yes. There was an office in South Jersey where the waiting room was crowded and I didn't feel comfortable in that office, and I told my rep to not make the call. We left the office and I called up, told my boss, called Travis and removed him from the target list. And I don't remember the name of the physician.
Leo O'Toole: So who is Travis?
Karen Degen: Travis was our I'm not sure of his title. He was in operations.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And where did he work?
Karen Degen: Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: Which location?
Karen Degen: Oh, St. Louis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who was your boss that you mentioned? You mentioned you called your boss.
Karen Degen: Jay, Jay Rago.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. You testified that you didn't feel comfortable in that office. Why didn't you feel comfortable?
Karen Degen: Because I felt as if there were too many patients in the waiting room, and I felt as if the patients that were in the waiting room were sketchy. I don't know how else to describe them. I didn't feel that they looked like appropriate patients.
Leo O'Toole: Did you suspect that controlled substances were being diverted?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I just felt uncomfortable with the amount of patients that were in the waiting room.
Leo O'Toole: Have you ever had similar experiences in New York?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: During your field rides, have you ever noticed waiting rooms that have a lot of young adult people in them?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. During your field rides, have you noticed waiting rooms that tend to have a high turnover and they tend to have short visits with the doctor?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Are your sales representatives aware or excuse me Strike that. During your time at Mallinckrodt, were your sales representatives aware of their prescribers' reputations in the community?
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation.
Karen Degen: Could you repeat that question?
Leo O'Toole: Sure. So during your time at Mallinckrodt, were your sales representatives aware of prescribers' reputation in the community?
William Davison: Same objection.
Karen Degen: I don't know. I mean, that is such a broad that is such a broad LEGAL ERVICES question.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Would your sales during your time at Mallinckrodt, were your sales representatives aware of any visits by the DEA to prescribers' offices?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: If they were made aware of something like that, then we had a process in place where they called me, they told me, I called Jay and I called Travis, and this doctor was immediately removed from our target list.
Leo O'Toole: Was any further action taken?
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation. Vague.
Karen Degen: I don't know what happened. Once I made that call, I do know that the target was removed, but I don't know what transpired with the information I provided.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know any procedures at Mallinckrodt at the time you were working there to prevent a doctor who had been removed from being added to a TAP? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: Are you saying that if a doctor was removed, were they added back in?
Leo O'Toole: I'm saying in this scenario that you presented, you have
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: a doctor who has exhibited what you or the sales representative determines to be troubling signs. They according to your testimony, they get removed from the list?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: You testified earlier that it is possible to add a doctor to the your TAP?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: So my question is, you have this doctor who has been removed according to
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: what you have been talking about. Is there are there any procedures to stop someone at Mallinckrodt from adding that doctor back to the list?
Karen Degen: My understanding was that once a doctor was removed because of compliance issues, they were permanently removed.
Leo O'Toole: And what is the basis for that understanding?
Karen Degen: Conversation.
Leo O'Toole: With whom?
Karen Degen: Travis.
Leo O'Toole: Is Travis is in operations?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is his surname?
Karen Degen: You mean his last name?
Leo O'Toole: Yeah.
Karen Degen: Moore.
Leo O'Toole: Moore? Did you ever provide your sales representatives at Mallinckrodt with instructions about how to report suspicious behavior?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What were those instructions?
Karen Degen: To let me know immediately.
Leo O'Toole: Anything else?
Karen Degen: And if they reported when they reported to me, it was immediate: Call my LEGAL ERVICES boss, tell him; call Jay, tell him; call Travis and have him removed.
Leo O'Toole: So apart from the experience that you have testified to in the South Jersey
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: waiting room, during your time at Mallinckrodt, was there ever a time when you felt uncomfortable in an HCP's office?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: When was that time?
Karen Degen: It was an office in North Jersey, and I was in I think it was a lunch. And, again, I just felt as if there were too many patients in there and didn't feel comfortable, and, again, told the rep not to call on that doctor anymore. And he was removed from the target list.
Leo O'Toole: Any other times?
Karen Degen: Not that I remember.
Leo O'Toole: And aside from those two times, was there anything you saw during your time at Mallinckrodt that made you feel uncomfortable?
Karen Degen: Not that I remember.
Leo O'Toole: Did any of the HCPs that your sales representatives detailed ever get arrested or indicted for something opioid related?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Can you tell me about those?
Karen Degen: I just remember, again, if we heard of something, then the representatives would let me know, let I would let Jay know, I would let Travis know, and they would be removed from the list.
Leo O'Toole: So how did you find out about the arrest?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I believe the one I'm remembering specifically was it was in the newspaper.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who was that?
Karen Degen: I don't remember their name, but they were in North Jersey.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So was did you personally read learn of that arrest by reading it in the newspaper?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Were there instances where your sales representatives learned of arrests and reported those to you?
Karen Degen: What I'm sorry. That was the situation where the rep told me
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: and showed me the newspaper article.
Leo O'Toole: I see.
Karen Degen: Yeah.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. At that time, were any of your sales reps detailing Mallinckrodt products to that individual?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I think they were, but I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. You don't recall the or do you recall the individual's name?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I just
Leo O'Toole: Do you recall any other individuals who were arrested or indicted for something opioid related?
Karen Degen: I believe there were.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I just don't remember the details.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And on those other occasions, how did you learn of the arrest or the indictment?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember the details.
Leo O'Toole: Did Mallinckrodt's compliance department ever inform you of these events?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Do you mean the ones that we reported?
Leo O'Toole: I mean, did anyone at Mallinckrodt who wasn't one of your sales representatives report these arrests or these indictments to you?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: So if headquarters became aware that a doctor was indicted or arrested and my understanding was that they were looking at that then they would notify the manager that this doctor was removed, and we were no longer to call on that particular physician.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what's the basis for your understanding?
Karen Degen: Conversations.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so did headquarters ever notify you of these developments?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: When?
Karen Degen: I don't remember when.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you remember which doctors?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: During your field rides, did any prescriber ever tell you or one of your sales representatives that a patient had overdosed on opioids?
Karen Degen: Not that I remember.
Leo O'Toole: And during these field rides, did any prescriber tell you or your sales representatives that a patient had become addicted to opioids?
Karen Degen: Not that I remember.
Leo O'Toole: And same question for dependence: During these field rides, did you did any prescriber tell you or any of your sales representatives that a patient had become dependent on ()plaids?
Karen Degen: Not that I remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you believe that Mallinckrodt has a duty to prevent the diversion of opioids?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: And do you believe that the diversion of opioids causes harm to the public?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: How?
Karen Degen: If doctors are prescribing opioids LEGAL ERVICES for patients that aren't appropriate patients, I think that's outside of guidelines. And I also those I mean, you read all the time about heroin and fentanyl out there, and I think that's an issue.
Leo O'Toole: So you testified that you told your sales representatives to report suspicious prescribers; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: So what did you tell them to look for?
Karen Degen: Well, first of all, if it was in the news, that was automatic. Second of all, if they were uncomfortable for any reason, so if they went into an office and for any reason whatsoever they were not comfortable, they were to immediately let me know, and that physician was taken off the target list. And too many patients in a waiting room was the one example I provided. But if they were uncomfortable for any reason, that doctor was removed.
Leo O'Toole: Did you provide any other examples to them of situations that might make them feel uncomfortable that would lead them to think they should contact you?
Karen Degen: If the doctor said anything to them that made them feel uncomfortable, that was a reason to remove a doctor from a target list.
Leo O'Toole: What would be an example of something?
Karen Degen: That didn't happen that I remember.
Leo O'Toole: Were there any monitors or news alerts put in place to track prescribers' indictments, arrests?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't know.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. I'd like to ask you a few questions about marketing materials.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Was Mallinckrodt's marketing in New York consistent with its policies and procedures at a national level?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And do you have any reason to believe that Xartemis was marketed differently in New York than elsewhere in the country?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Any reason to believe that Exalgo was marketed differently in New York than anywhere else in the country?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: To return to the leave-behind that we talked about
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: am I correct in thinking that would be left behind?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: If it is called a leave-behind, it is something in a pharma lingo I don't remember specifically Mallinckrodt. But if it is called a leave-behind, that means it has been approved and you can leave it behind in a physician's office.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So it is essentially something you give to the physician, to the physician's office?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Are there any other materials that you would give to a physician?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Do you mind if I take a quick break?
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record. The time is 1:53 p.m. (Thereupon, a recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're now on the record. The time is 2:01 p.m.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, did you do anything in your role as a manager of sales representatives that was inconsistent with the instructions you received from Mallinckrodt corporate?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: What marketing materials did your sales representatives use during your time at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you remember if your marketing materials took the form of physical pieces of paper?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recall if there were any iPad-based marketing?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What was that iPad-based marketing?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recall for which drugs the iPad marketing was for?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 18. It's Bates stamped MNK-NY 0000003470. This is an e-mail with the attachment.
Karen Degen: Okay. (Whereupon, E-mail with attachment, Bates stamped MNK-NY 0000003470 through 3471, was marked as Degen Exhibit 18 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this e-mail?
Karen Degen: I don't remember it.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. But do you see this e-mail is addressed to you?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know Joe Miranda?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Who was Joe Miranda?
Karen Degen: He was a sales rep in New York.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Did you manage him?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Have you had a chance to read the attachment to this?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And has it refreshed your recollection about what materials were part of the Xartemis marketing materials?
Karen Degen: Just from what I'm reading on here. I don't remember anything else out of this.
Leo O'Toole: So what have you read here?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Do you want me to
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: read the e-mail? I don't -
Leo O'Toole: How about I'll read I'm read going to read the last bullet
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen.
Karen Degen: Sure.
Leo O'Toole: It says and this is the last bullet. It says, "Called on top Xartemis prescriber, Dr. Criselda Balmaceda."
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: "Identified a return date opportunity of 4/10 to see her. Delivered Co-Pay cards and introduced self to staff." LEGAL ERVICES Did I read that correctly?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So were Co-Pay cards a part of Xartemis' marketing materials?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: The third bullet from the bottom; I'll read it also. It says, "Visited Gramercy Surgery Center: MultiSpecialty facility visited with Jay Rago. Identified key medical director and visited with Podiatric surgeon. Left behind materials and contact information. Received call later in the day requesting a return visit to see the Medical Director Christopher Chang. Meeting scheduled for April 15th." Did I read that correctly?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So your sales representatives during your time at Mallinckrodt did leave behind materials?
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: At the offices of the HCPs.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Ms. Degen, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 19. It's Bates stamped MNK-NY 000533435. (Discussion held off the record.) (Whereupon, E-mail chain Bates stamped MNK-NY 000533435, was marked as Degen Exhibit 19 for identification, as of this date.) Do you recall your sales representatives distributing Co-Pay cards for Xartemis during your time at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you know if you would receive a notification when a prescriber used one of these Co-Pay cards?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Looking at this e-mail, it looks like they did.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what is the subject line of this e-mail?
Karen Degen: Xartemis XR New Practitioner Notice.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who wrote this e-mail?
Karen Degen: The top one?
Leo O'Toole: That's right.
Karen Degen: That was from me.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And this is to your sales representatives?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And the e-mail that you forwarded, I'm going to read this, "Mallinckrodt New Prescriber Notice for Xartemis XR Co-Pay cards for Nicholas Yurovsky in Sales Territory 10204, Brooklyn, New York. The following are practitioners in your sales territory whose patient used an Xartemis dollar-off coupon for the first time on the date indicated."
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Thank you. Ms. Degen, I'm going to hand you what's been marked Exhibit Number 20. The Bates number for this is MNK NC00338603.
Karen Degen: Okay. (Whereupon, E-mail from Jay Rago, Dated April 16, 2014, was marked as Degen Exhibit 20 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: I don't remember it, but I see it is from Jay.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And is Jay Rago your boss
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: at the time?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And it is sent to you; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. I have some questions about the paragraph underneath "Web Programs." I can read it aloud. "Also, yesterday a customer asked about abuse deterrence. The speaker will ask that the customer sign a medical information request that the sales rep can provide. Please make sure your people are prepared to assist in that important service for those unsolicited medical requests." Who was the customer?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: That Jay is referring to?
Leo O'Toole: That's right.
Karen Degen: I don't know.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. During your time at Mallinckrodt, did you or any of your sales representatives refer to HCPs as customers?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I remember referring to them as HCPs.
Leo O'Toole: If during the course of a sales visit one of your sales reps was asked a question about abuse deterrence, how did you instruct your sales representatives to respond?
Karen Degen: They were to let the doctor know we did not have abuse deterrence labeling. And then if the doctor had any further questions, they were to send that request for more information to the medical affairs department.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And in order to send a request for more information to the medical affairs department, would they need to sign a medical information request?
Karen Degen: I don't remember the exact process. It might have been on their iPad, but I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What information would the medical affairs department provide to prescribers in the event of a question about abuse deterrence?
Karen Degen: We weren't
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: We weren't provided with that information.
Leo O'Toole: Who comprises the medical affairs department?
Karen Degen: I don't know.
Leo O'Toole: Would MSLs be in the medical affairs department?
Karen Degen: I don't know who was in the department.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. If you move down to the PPI Program
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: section have you read this?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: section? Okay. Does this reflect your recollection about what PPI stands for?
Karen Degen: I don't remember this program. I can't remember anything beyond what's in this e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that there is patient LEGAL ERVICES prescription insights in this e-mail?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Does it seem reasonable that that would be what PPI stands for?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. During your time managing sales reps at Mallinckrodt, do you recall Mallinckrodt offering free prescriptions through this PPI program?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I'm seeing it here.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: So from based on this, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you remember that part of that program was also that patients would provide feedback to prescribers?
Karen Degen: I don't remember that.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And the last thing I'd like to draw your attention to is on the backside of the page. You have you read the backside?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So do you see the second bullet point underneath "Our Specialists"?
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: It says, "These specialists create access, sell behind the counter to the entire office, and not through the glass of the reception area." What was your understanding of that sentence?
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation.
Karen Degen: I don't know what that means.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And sitting here today, what is your understanding?
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation.
Karen Degen: I don't know what that means. I don't remember that.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. All right. (Whereupon, PowerPoint LEGAL ERVICES Presentation, Getting to Know Your Xartemis XR Master Sales Aid, was marked as Degen Exhibit 21 for identification, as of this date.) Okay, Ms. Degen, I'm now handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 21 with the Bates stamp MNK NC00014923.
Karen Degen: You want me to read every page?
Leo O'Toole: If you've got the general gist of the document, I think that will be sufficient.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So what is this document, to the best of your knowledge?
Karen Degen: It looks it is about the master sales aid
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: that's in the iPad.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And for which drug is this?
Karen Degen: Xartemis.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. All right. And so does that refresh your recollection earlier regarding which drugs Mallinckrodt's iPad marketing was for?
Karen Degen: I know that Xartemis was one of them.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Great. Thanks.
Karen Degen: Sure.
Leo O'Toole: I think if we could take a ten-minute break how does that sound?
Karen Degen: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now off the record. The time is 2:22 p.m. (Thereupon, a recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're now on the record. The time is 2:37 p.m.
Leo O'Toole: Ms. Degen, I would like to clear up one thing regarding your testimony at the very beginning of the day. You testified that you had had your deposition taken previously; is that correct?
Karen Degen: That I've had a deposition?
Leo O'Toole: Uh-huh.
Karen Degen: Yes, that's correct.
Leo O'Toole: Can you describe that time?
Karen Degen: It was many years ago 20, 25 years ago, and it was for a car accident.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Were you a party to that case?
Karen Degen: Yes, I was.
Leo O'Toole: So were you the plaintiff or were you the defendant?
Karen Degen: I believe I was the plaintiff.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So you were suing; is that correct?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And have you had your deposition taken at any other point?
Karen Degen: Not that I recall.
Leo O'Toole: Just that one time?
Karen Degen: Yeah.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Are you familiar with the term KOL?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What is a KOL?
Karen Degen: It is a key opinion leader.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And what is a key opinion leader?
Karen Degen: It is a physician that is well known in their field academic.
Leo O'Toole: And did Mallinckrodt have KOLs that it would use?
Karen Degen: I don't
William Davison: Objection. Vague as to time.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. During your time at Mallinckrodt, did you interact with any KOLs?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What is a speakers program?
Karen Degen: A speakers program is where you have a speaker who then presents to their peers, to other practitioners.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And did Mallinckrodt have speakers programs?
Karen Degen: I don't
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: During your time there?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 22. I have a Bates stamp of MNK-NY 0000006066. (Whereupon, E-mail from Katie Brusveen, Dated April 14, 2014, was marked as Degen Exhibit 22 for identification, as of this date.) Have you had a chance to read the document?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So is this an e-mail that is sent to you at your work e-mail address? LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And is the subject line, Reminder: Virtual Speaker Programs Begin this Week?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Does that refresh your recollection regarding whether, during your time at Mallinckrodt, Mallinckrodt had speaker programs?
Karen Degen: I don't remember. Only what I see on this e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: So my question is, does it refresh your recollection?
Karen Degen: No. I don't remember these programs.
Leo O'Toole: Sitting here today reading this e-mail, do you have any reason to think that Mallinckrodt didn't have virtual speaker programs?
Karen Degen: I don't know. I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: If I read in the first paragraph, it says, "The first Xartemis XR (oxycodone hydrochloride and Acetaminophen) LEGAL ERVICES Extended-Release Tablets (CII) speaker programs begin this week! We are thrilled that you have already registered over 200 customers to participate in a program with you, or independently." Did I read that correctly?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: During your time as a sales manager, did any of your sales reps nominate speakers for the speakers program?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you have any reason based on the e-mail that's in front of you to doubt that you, in April 2014, had registered over 200 customers to participate in a speakers program?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: Can you repeat that?
Leo O'Toole: Sure. So the e-mail in front of you reads, "We are thrilled that you have already registered over 200 customers to participate in a program with you or independently." My question is: Do you have any reason sitting here today to think that in on April 14, 2014, you, Karen Degen, had not registered over 200 customers to participate in a speakers program?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: No, I have no reason to doubt that.
Leo O'Toole: So what was your involvement in Mallinckrodt speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation.
Karen Degen: I don't remember speaker programs at Mallinckrodt.
Leo O'Toole: Did any prescriber reach out to one of your sales representatives and ask to be made a speaker for Mallinckrodt speaker programs?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
William Davison: Objection. Calls for speculation.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know how the speakers were selected?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: No. (Whereupon, E-mail chain, Bates stamped MNKNC06009154 with attachment, was marked as Degen Exhibit 23 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: What I'm going to hand you now is what has been marked as Exhibit 23, Bates stamped MNK NC06009154.
Karen Degen: Yeah, I read it
Leo O'Toole: Are you ready?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this e-mail?
Karen Degen: I don't remember this e-mail.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that it is sent from Jay Rago?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see that it is sent to you?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see that it is sent on April 14, 2014 during your employment at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And do you see the subject of it is "Forward: Xartemis XR Live Programs XLSX"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see the forwarded e-mail?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And have you gotten a chance to read that?
Karen Degen: Yes, I have.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And in reading that, do you understand that this, the attachment is a list of 60 live programs with cities and representative contact information for each program?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And these are live programs, correct?
Karen Degen: That's what it says here.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So if we can turn to the back one.
Karen Degen: Sure.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see at the top it says, "Live Program Cities"?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So I'm going to ask you if you can look in the "City" column. Do you see where Buffalo is?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: It is number 12.
Karen Degen: Uh-huh, I do.
Leo O'Toole: And do you see that the representative is Warren Klein?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And there is a space all the way on the right for a speaker?
Karen Degen: All the way on the right for speaker.
Leo O'Toole: Yeah, so it should be LEGAL ERVICES
Karen Degen: Okay. Okay. I see that, yes.
Leo O'Toole: Column J?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: And then there is a speaker excuse me, there is a Column K for the "Venue".
Karen Degen: K.
Leo O'Toole: Do you see that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: I do. Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: And then if we go about five entries down, do you see that there is a listing for Manhattan, New York?
Karen Degen: Yes, I do.
Leo O'Toole: Now sorry. And then do you also see that there is a listing for Melville, New York?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. So based on this document, do you have any reason to doubt that Mallinckrodt presented speakers programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. To be more specific, do you have any doubt that Mallinckrodt presented live speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I have no doubt. I don't remember the speaker programs.
Leo O'Toole: If I can take you back to the previous exhibit, I believe it was Exhibit 22, very briefly.
Karen Degen: This one?
Leo O'Toole: Yeah, that's right.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: On the basis of reading that document, do you have any reason to doubt that Mallinckrodt presented virtual speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: No. (Whereupon, E-mail chain with attachment, Bates stamped MNK NC00542116, was marked as Degen Exhibit 24 for identification, as of LEGAL ERVICES this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Okay. What I'm handing you is what's been marked as Exhibit 24, Bates stamped MNK NC00542116. Now, have you had a chance to read the e-mail Bates stamped ending in 2116?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And have you had a chance to read the attachment, which is Bates stamped ending in 2121?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: No, I don't remember this document.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that it is an e-mail sent from Kim Keigher?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And she is sending it to you, among others?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And that it is sent June 19, 2014?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And the title of this e-mail is Mallinckrodt Speaker Program Confirmation Invitations Updated; is that right?
Karen Degen: That's correct.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. The name of this program was Pain Speaks Louder Than Words; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And Joseph Valenza, M.D. was a speaker; is that right?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And it is held at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse in Parsippany, New Jersey; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recall this event?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. You don't recall how many people attended?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you recall if this speaker program was done to promote Xartemis?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: On the form, it says "Xartemis" here, so, yes, it was Xartemis, based on this.
Leo O'Toole: What I'm handing you has been marked as Exhibit 25.
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: That's Bates stamped MNKNC -
Karen Degen: Okay.
Leo O'Toole: 00612028.
Karen Degen: Thank you. (Whereupon, E-mail chain, Bates stamped MNKNC00612028, was marked as Degen Exhibit 25 for identification, as of this date.)
Leo O'Toole: Have you finished reading?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay.
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recognize this document?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that it is an e-mail from Kim Keigher sent on February 27, 2015?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Do you see that it is sent to you?
Karen Degen: Uh-huh.
Leo O'Toole: All right. And do you see that it is sent to Joe Miranda
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: among others? Do you remember where Joe Miranda's territory was?
Karen Degen: Manhattan.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And how about William Schwartz; do you remember his territory?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And how about Gregg Wolf?
Karen Degen: Long Island.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And okay. And Kim says in this e-mail, "Here is an invitation for my upcoming program. Please let me know if you have any HCPs who are interested in attending"; is that right?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And have you had a chance to read the attachment?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And so what is the name of this program?
Karen Degen: Pain Speaks Louder Than Words.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And who is it presented by?
Karen Degen: Dr. Valenza.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And where does it take LEGAL ERVICES place?
Karen Degen: Ruth's Chris Steakhouse.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. And on what date?
Karen Degen: March 17th.
Leo O'Toole: Do you have any reason to believe sitting here today that Kim Keigher's invitation to her fellow sales representatives to let her know if there were any HCPs who are interested in attending was limited only to New Jersey HCPs or to New York and New Jersey HCPs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Were these speakers for these speaker programs trained?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Did Mallinckrodt track the prescriptions of those HCPs who attended these speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember. I don't know
Leo O'Toole: Did you ever, during your time at Mallinckrodt, attend any speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Did you ever hear of any speaker programs?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Were you aware during your time at Mallinckrodt of there being a requirement that a certain number of HCPs had to attend each program?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
William Davison: Objection.
Leo O'Toole: Were there any rules about who could attend these programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Have you heard of any non-HCPs attending these speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Have you heard of any repeat attendees for these speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know of any regulations at Mallinckrodt during your time there that limited what venues could host speaker events?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Did you work with any KOLs during your time at Mallinckrodt?
William Davison: Objection.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know if any Mallinckrodt KOLs served as speakers for speaker programs?
William Davison: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. Calls for her to speculate.
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: Do you know Dr. Christopher Gharibo?
Karen Degen: I don't remember that name.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. During your time at Mallinckrodt, did you ever meet Rosemary Polomano?
Karen Degen: I don't remember that name.
Leo O'Toole: During your time at Mallinckrodt, did you ever communicate with the American Academy of Pain Medicine?
Karen Degen: Not to my knowledge.
Leo O'Toole: Do you recall ever recommending doctors to attend any American Academy of Pain Medicine events?
Karen Degen: I don't remember.
Leo O'Toole: No further questions. Thank you for your time today, Ms. Degen.
Karen Degen: Okay.
William Davison: Can we go off the record?
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now off the time record. The time is 3:04 p.m. (Thereupon, a recess was taken, and then the proceedings continued as follows:) We're on the record. The time is 3:17 p.m. EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVISON:
Leo O'Toole: Good afternoon, Ms. Degen. Thanks for your patience today. As you know, my name is William Davison. I just have a few questions for you. Earlier today, you were asked about trainings that you attended regarding the products Xartemis and Exalgo. Do you remember that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What did that training include?
Karen Degen: It included discussing the benefits and of the products along with the risks and limitations.
Leo O'Toole: Okay. Have you heard the term "fair and balanced marketing" before?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What does it mean in the pharmaceutical industry?
Karen Degen: It means with every interaction with a healthcare prescriber, there needs to be a discussion not only about the benefits of a drug, but also about the risks and the limitations.
Leo O'Toole: And were you trained on fair and balanced marketing at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And what were you trained on with respect to fair and balanced marketing at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: That every time there was an interaction, you had to discuss the risks and limitations.
Leo O'Toole: Did you instruct your sales rep to present both the risks of Xartemis and Exalgo on every call?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Objection. Form. Did you observe sales reps discussing the risks of Xartemis and Exalgo on every sales call?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Objection to form. Did you ever observe a sales rep on a sales call that did not provide fair and balanced marketing to a physician?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Earlier today you were also asked LEGAL ERVICES about the term "abuse deterrent" with respect to Xartemis; is do you remember that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Were sales reps at Mallinckrodt trained on whether Xartemis was abuse deterrent?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: What were they trained?
Karen Degen: That Xartemis does not have abuse deterrence labeling.
Leo O'Toole: Were sales reps trained on whether or not they could claim that Xartemis was abuse deterrent?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: And what were they trained?
Karen Degen: That they that Xartemis did not have abuse deterrence labeling.
Leo O'Toole: And they were they trained on how to respond to a healthcare provider that asked about abuse deterrence with respect to Xartemis?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Objection to form. And what were they trained?
Karen Degen: They were trained that they were to share with the physician that Xartemis did not have abuse deterrence labeling. And if the doctor asked any further questions, they were to refer those questions to the medical information department.
Leo O'Toole: Earlier today you were asked about Mallinckrodt's promotional materials. Do you remember that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Did Mallinckrodt provide approved promotional materials to use with physicians while promoting Xartemis?
Karen Degen: Yes.
Leo O'Toole: Did any of those materials claim Xartemis was abuse deterrent?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: Did you ever see a sales representative use a material with a healthcare provider to promote Xartemis that was not approved?
Karen Degen: No.
Leo O'Toole: I'd like to mark Exhibit 26, and LEGAL ERVICES this is Bates labeled MNK-T1 0006286801. (Whereupon, Document Bates stamped MNK-Tl 0006286801 through 6824, was marked as Degen Exhibit 26 for identification, as of this date.)
William Davison: If you want to go ahead and take a look at that, I am going to focus on page 19.
Karen Degen: Page?
William Davison: 19. And, Ms. Degen, I'll represent to you that this is a document that one of plaintiffs' experts claims was a media training document that Mallinckrodt used to promote aspects of its abuse deterrent technology. Did you ever see this document while at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Was this document used by the sales force while you were at Mallinckrodt?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: And on page 19, there is a LEGAL ERVICES question there that says, "Can Xartemis XR be easily crushed?" Do you see that?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Were you trained on how to respond to the question, Can Xartemis XR be easily crushed, if a healthcare provider asked it?
Karen Degen: Yes, we are.
William Davison: And what were you trained to do?
Karen Degen: To share with them that that question would be referred to our medical information department.
William Davison: And did you observe this question being asked in the field?
Karen Degen: Yes, I did.
William Davison: And what did you observe the response to be?
Karen Degen: The representative shared with the doctor that they would send that question to our medical information department.
William Davison: Okay. Are you aware today that Mallinckrodt manufacturers generic medication?
Karen Degen: Yes.
William Davison: Did you ever promote Mallinckrodt generic medication?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: Did anyone at Mallinckrodt ever ask you to do anything that you were not comfortable doing?
Karen Degen: No.
William Davison: I have nothing further. Thank you.
Leo O'Toole: Nothing on redirect.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now off the record. The time is 3:22 p.m. This marks the end of today's deposition.